[SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA

Roy
Matthias Troescher of SimLab, gave an impressive presentation on a 
complete automotive EMI simulation and measurement correlation for a 
complete automotive electrical system, including cabling, using SimLab, 
CST Cable Studio and CST PCB Studio.

http://www.cst.com/Content/Documents/Events/NAUF2008/04-Troescher.pdf



Scott McMorrow
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
121 North River Drive
Narragansett, RI 02882
(401) 284-1827 Business
(401) 284-1840 Fax

http://www.teraspeed.com

Teraspeed® is the registered service mark of
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC



Roy Leventhal wrote:
> Chris,
>
> For the past six years I have been advocating the use of more simulation 
> tools among my EMI engineering colleagues (at work and in the IEEE EMC 
> Society), so I am not unsympathetic to some of your points.
>
> I find many EMI engineers reluctant to use EDA tools and relatively few 
> simultaneously cognizant of theory, estimating (yellow pad), simulation, 
> and measurement in both SI and EMI. Meanwhile, I find continual progress 
> being made by EDA tool vendors that should be continually evaluated by 
> the EMI engineering discipline. I also find a growing level of 
> acceptance of, an interest in, modeling and simulation tools.
>
> Historically, those EMI EDA tools have not been ready for prime time as 
> far as EMI engineers are concerned. So they do what they have to do to 
> get a product to pass regulatory: Test, measure, find and fix, and 
> iterate until they get a product to pass.
>
> What I see is that when an EMI engineer is in a test cell measuring 
> conducted and radiated emissions and susceptibility they are working 
> with frequency spectrum scans. Those frequency spectrum scans are the 
> data they have to present, not diagrams of eye opening and other SI 
> plots. Simulating partial planes an IC package is part of the detailed 
> design but usually too much detail for them to simulate at the system level.
>
> My first question is, can you provide me some insight into your model 
> abstraction and simplification process? I usually can?t afford 
> simulating a system down to the gate level when seeking EMI answers. 
> Some modern CMOS models incorporate around 250 factors for around 50 
> elements per gate and I/Os have multiple gates.
>
> Also, what models are you using for the IC? Are you using Berkeley 
> SPICE, EKV, PSPICE, S-Parameter, large or small signal, or IBIS, or 
> what? I?m seeing evidence that factors we can control at the system 
> level are sometimes interactive AND non-linear and would like to know 
> the best models to use and their valid frequency, voltage, and 
> temperature limitations. I suspect that some of the non-linearities are 
> due to power system noise modulation of my IC I/Os. I also would like to 
> investigate if there is core-switching noise getting to my I/Os.
>
> Since I?m trying to correlate with hardware I would also need to know 
> the distributions of the IC model parameters for the various parts on 
> the board, as well as the passive components, and the variables for your 
> dielectric uniformity, trace parameters, etc. I suspect that I?ll have 
> to do a statistical simulation since in my prototypes I?m not quite sure 
> which part of the distribution my parts came from. I would like to 
> repeat the ?50 dB you achieved especially since I would expect to verify 
> the results against hardware. What particular statistical method did you 
> use in achieving your results? And when you verified those results did 
> you do it against at least 25 working prototypes to remove the element 
> of chance?
>
> How about your measurement repeatability, I assume its good. I know for 
> myself that when cables are moved just a bit on my test bench my 
> repeatability is a problem. The movement of objects in my anechoic 
> chamber and the use of different measurement antennas seem to cause 
> similar problems. Of course you have modeled all this in verifying your 
> results, so I seek your guidance since as you state you have many years 
> of both SI and EMI experience. Since I?m dealing with the safety of an 
> airplane I can?t be too careful.
>
> Also, I?m seeing changes in my EMI results with changes in the data 
> patterns on my boards and changes in the strengths of emitters in 
> various positions on my boards. So I?m sure that your 50 dB EMI 
> correlation must account for magnitude and phase at any place in your 
> measurement chamber.
>
> One thing that upsets me is a 500 KHz switching power supply in my 
> system that is producing significant harmonics out to 50 MHz and beyond. 
> I know that if I simulate its effects that I?ll have to use a SPICE EDA 
> tool that can model layout structure and converge with resonant 
> circuits. I haven?t found one readily available that I can import my 
> layout from Allegro into. Unfortunately, I have to contend with such 
> beasties operating alongside my moderately fast digital stuff and I 
> can?t quite do everything I want with the board stackup because I?m 
> dealing with 10s to 100s of amps in my system, not milliamps to microamps..
>
> One of my EMI colleagues in another company has become more interested 
> in simulation (I think I inspired him a little) and who is working with 
> some first class EMI EDA companies. A real breakthrough was achieved 
> when his technical contact said ?Aha, you want a virtual test bench so 
> you can directly compare simulation to measurement.? They?re working on 
> it and achieving some good, if varied results. They?ll need such a tool 
> when they need to do a quick turn-around on a design iteration. But, he 
> didn?t indicate 50 dB correlations real soon. They had to simplify the 
> problem to get it to run in a reasonable time. One thing they didn?t do 
> is model the antenna.
>
> Do I believe that EMI modeling and simulation is an absolute necessity? 
> You bet I do. But, I see a different world with different emphasizes and 
> needs that will have to be addressed by EDA vendors before the much 
> criticized and much harried ?average? EMI engineer can be successfully 
> engaged in making greater use of those tools.
>
> I have many more questions about the issues I raised above and some 
> others I have. I?m sure that we?ll get into them after you have 
> instructed me further in my deficiencies as you have already kindly 
> done. I know that I don?t know near enough in my business and I?m open 
> to your instruction.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Roy
>
>
> Chris Cheng wrote:
>   
>> I walked many miles in EMI and still do.
>> My company had never and will never have EMI only design engineers. I 
>> am responsible for anything that is not 1 and 0 in our system. I don't 
>> care if it is call SI or EMI. Analog is analog. Any engineer who work 
>> for me is capable of doing both.
>>     
>>> As things stand today any EMI engineer can tell you that they can
>>> make an entire
>>> career on fixing prototype SI/EMI problems based on the same
>>> half-dozen principles
>>>       
>> I am still waiting for you to tell me how your EMI engineer can make 
>> their career out of my examples below.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Charlotte and/or Roy Leventhal [mailto:crleventhal@xxxxxxxxxxx]
>> *Sent:* Sun 3/23/2008 8:08 PM
>> *To:* Chris Cheng; olaney@xxxxxxxx; Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
>> *Cc:* avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> *Subject:* RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
>>
>> Chris,
>> I'm heavily into using modeling and simulation. Check my website: 
>> http://www.semiconductorsimulation.com 
>> <http://www.semiconductorsimulation.com/>. I'm also a great advocate 
>> of combining EDA tools with the yellow pad for maximum efficiency and 
>> understanding.
>> I recently had/have the opportunity to do some EMI engineering. Before 
>> either SI engineers cast aspersions on EMI engineers or vice-versa I 
>> suggest they walk in the others' moccasins a few miles.
>> You are right that EMI engineers will have to be better tool users in 
>> the future. Why don't you help them get started, as I am trying to do?
>> Best Regards
>> Roy
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     *From:* Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx]
>>     *Sent:* Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:52 PM
>>     *To:* olaney@xxxxxxxx; Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
>>     *Cc:* avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>     *Subject:* RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
>>
>>     I would love to learn how to model a multi-giga bit channel with
>>     accuracy down to -50db with a yellow pad.
>>     I would love to learn how to predict eye openings of heavily
>>     loaded DDR2/3 buses with multiple loads and multiple branches and
>>     driving positions under sso and crosstalk conditions with a yellow
>>     pad.
>>     I would love to learn how to model package interconnects that has
>>     imperfect return reference planes with a yellow pad.
>>     I would love to learn how to deliver power to a multi-giga hertz
>>     IC where the power grid and via structure is inherited 2 1/2 and
>>     3D with a yellow pad.
>>     Are you sure we are talking about the same SI work here ? What
>>     does your average EMI engineer knows about the above anyways ?
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *From:* si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of olaney@xxxxxxxx
>>     *Sent:* Sun 3/23/2008 2:07 PM
>>     *To:* Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
>>     *Cc:* avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>     *Subject:* [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
>>
>>
>>     The symptom we see today is that many designers are heavily
>>     reliant upon
>>     really big, expensive software tools to iterate empirical designs into
>>     something workable. The same designer, given adequate understanding of
>>     the underlying principles, can often do 90% of the work on a
>>     yellow pad,
>>     then use software for cleanup and as a sanity check. When I see SI
>>     related job descriptions that want work experience with a big list of
>>     tools, I can readily guess what the company mindset is:
>>     substitution of
>>     tools for competence, and bring in the consultants when they get into
>>     trouble.
>>
>>     Orin
>>
>>     On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:53:44 -0500 Roy Leventhal
>>     <Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx>
>>     writes:
>>     > Avtaar,
>>     >
>>     > It seems strange to me that in the present/coming years of
>>     > "microwave
>>     > digital" that we will be graduating logic designers who will be
>>     > unable to
>>     > get their signals across a PCB or keep those signals from
>>     > interfering with
>>     > other signals.
>>     >
>>     > As things stand today any EMI engineer can tell you that they can
>>     > make an entire
>>     > career on fixing prototype SI/EMI problems based on the same
>>     > half-dozen principles
>>     > from SI/EMI 101. But, fixing problems in hardware instead of
>>     > catching them in the
>>     > virtual design not working smart. Part of the challenge of working
>>     > smart is applying
>>     > principles and analysis early in development. The logic designer is
>>     > best positioned
>>     > to do that or involve specialist to do it for him or her.
>>     >
>>     > First we had the analog age. Then we had the digital age. Now I
>>     > believe we
>>     > have the dawning of the age of fast impulse signals driving logic
>>     > circuits.
>>     >
>>     > Meanwhile our schools are, as always, a day late and a dollar short
>>     > - not
>>     > necessarily a few individual professors and schools here and there.
>>     > When I got my
>>     > BSEE in 1962 my professors were still teaching me about vacuum tubes
>>     > and had barely
>>     > started seriously considering teaching transistors. This is despite
>>     > the fact that
>>     > industry had developed viable transistors for nearly a decade by
>>     > then.
>>     >
>>     > The IEEE EMC Society is just now making a credible effort to address
>>     > signal
>>     > integrity. But, signal integrity has been a driving issue for about
>>     > 20
>>     > years now.
>>     >
>>     > It is hard to evolve institutionalized cultures (schools,
>>     > professional societies, and
>>     > old-line companies) and thinking. They are, after all, in the
>>     > business of perpetuating
>>     > their PAST successes and expertise.
>>     >
>>     > The advice about UM-R is good. So is the advice about noting which
>>     > professors and
>>     > schools are publishing in the latest technologies. Beyond that, stay
>>     > informed and well
>>     > ead from industry-oriented trade magazines in those latest
>>     > technologies on your own.
>>     > Let me suggest High Frequency, Conformity, and the IEEE EMC Society
>>     > quarterly newsletter.
>>     >
>>     > Lastly, here is a reading list of reference textbooks you can
>>     > consider perusing:
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > [1] Staff of Agilent Technologies, "Time Domain Reflectometry
>>     > Theory,"
>>     > Application Note 1304-2 Hewlett-Packard, 2006.
>>     >
>>     > See also:
>>     >
>>     > Staff of HP, "Time Domain Reflectometry Theory," Application Note
>>     > 1304-2
>>     > Hewlett-Packard, 1988.
>>     > http://www.lthe.hmg.inpg.fr/medite/5966-4855E.pdf
>>     >
>>     > [2] Staff of Agilent, "Manuals: Network Analyzers," Various,
>>     > down-loadable, Agilent.
>>     >
>>     http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=153424.i.2&to=80039.k.1&;
>>     
>> <http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=153424.i.2&to=80039.k.1&;>
>>     cc=US&lc=eng&no=225
>>     >
>>     >
>>     <http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=153424.i.2&to=80039.k.1
>>     &cc=US&lc=eng&no=225>
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > [3] C. Antonescu, P.D. Ewing, "EMI/RFI and Power Surge Withstand
>>     > Guidance for the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission."
>>     >
>>     > [4] Bruce R. Archambeault, "Shielding of Air Vent Holes," page 102
>>     > IEEE
>>     > EMC Society Newsletter, Issue # 215, Fall 2007
>>     >
>>     > [5] Bruce R. Archambeault and James L. Drewniak, /PCB Design for
>>     > Real
>>     > World EMI Control/, Springer, 2002. ISBN: 1-4020-7130-2
>>     >
>>     > [6] Bill Ashley, "Using the Network Analyzer as a Grid Dip
>>     > Oscillator,"
>>     > AN 132 AEA Technology, Inc., 2005
>>     >
>>     http://www.aeatechnology.com/usermanuals/AN132%20Using%20the%20Network%20
>>     Analyzer%20as%20a%20Grid%20Dip%20Oscillator.pdf
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > [7] Eric Bogatin, /Signal Integrity: Simplified/, Prentice Hall,
>>     > 2004.
>>     > ISBN: 0-13-066946-6
>>     >
>>     > [8] Marty Brown, "Good Physical Layout Takes Black Magic Out of
>>     > Power
>>     > Supply Design," EDA Design Line, 2000.
>>     > http://www.edadesignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?article?ID=192200741
>>     >
>>     > [9] Nachyuck Chang, "Theory of Oscilloscope," SNU.
>>     > http://elpl.snu.ac.kr/csd07/lecturenote/4_dso.pdf
>>     >
>>     > [10] Sonia Ben Dhia, Mohamed Ramdani, and Etienne Sicard,
>>     > /Electromagnetic Compatibility of Integrated Circuits: Techniques
>>     > for
>>     > Low Emission and Susceptibility,/ Springer, 2005. ISBN:
>>     >
>>     > [11] Mike Eberly and Larry Dunleavy, "Student's Introduction to the
>>     > HP8714 RF Network Analyzer," 1998
>>     > http://ee.eng.usf.edu/people/dunleavy/references/reading2.pdf
>>     >
>>     > [12] Morris Engelson and Fred Telewski, /Spectrum Analyzer Theory
>>     > and
>>     > Applications,/ Artech House, 1974. ISBN-10: 089006024X, ISBN-13:
>>     > 978-0890060247
>>     >
>>     > [13] Y. W. Fowlkes, C. L. Creveling, /Engineering Methods for Robust
>>     >
>>     > Product Design/, Addison-Wesley, 1995.
>>     >
>>     > [14] Gene Garat, and Staff of IBM, "EMSAT Rules Checker 16 Rules,"
>>     > Moss
>>     > Bay EDA and IBM, http://www.mossbayeda.com/EMSAT-Rules.pdf, March
>>     > 2006.
>>     >
>>     > [15] Michael Hiebel, /Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis/,
>>     > Rohde &
>>     > Schwarz, ISBN: 978-3-939837-0
>>     >
>>     > [16] Todd Hubing, "Circuit Board Layout to Reduce Noise Emission and
>>     >
>>     > Susceptibility," University of Missouri - Rolla, March 2006
>>     >
>>     > [17] Multivariate Statistical Analysis: IBM Data Explorer,
>>     > http://www.research.ibm.com/dx/
>>     >
>>     > [18] Staff, ICEM #62014-3, "Electromagnetic Compatibility Part 3
>>     > Integrated Circuits Electrical Modeling," IEC Standard Proposal/,
>>     > /2002.
>>     >
>>     > [19] Staff, IEC # 61000-4-2, "Electromagnetic Compatibility Part 4-2
>>     >
>>     > Testing and Measurement Techniques - Electrostatic Discharge
>>     > Immunity
>>     > Test, IEC, 2001. ISBN: 2-8318-5687-6
>>     >
>>     > [20] Yoonjae Lee and Raj Mittra, "Electromagnetic Interference
>>     > Mitigation by Using a Spread-Spectrum Approach," IEEE Transactions
>>     > on
>>     > Electromagnetic Compatibility, Vol. 44, No. 2, May 2002.
>>     >
>>     > [22] Roy Leventhal and Lynne Green, Semiconductor Modeling: For
>>     > Simulating Signal, Power and Electromagnetic Integrity, Springer,
>>     > 2006.
>>     > ISBN 0-387-24159-0
>>     >
>>     > [23] Michel Mardiguian, /Controlling Radiated Emissions by Design,
>>     > 2^nd
>>     > Ed.,/ Springer, 2001. ISBN: 0792379780
>>     >
>>     > [24] F. D. Martzloff, "Lightening and NEMP Transient Protection with
>>     >
>>     > Metal Oxide Varistors," General Electric Technical Information
>>     > Series
>>     > 82CRD084, 1982.
>>     >
>>     > [25] Staff, Maxim, "A Beginners Guide to Filter Topologies,"
>>     > Application
>>     > Note 1762 Maxim, Inc., 2002,
>>     > http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/1762
>>     >
>>     > [26] Staff, Maxim, "EMI/EMC Suppression in Audio/Video Interfaces,"
>>     > Application Note 3882 Maxim, Inc., 2006,
>>     > http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/3882
>>     >
>>     > [27] Scott Mee, Roy Leventhal, Al Wexler and Mike Ventham,
>>     > "Simulation
>>     > for the Suppression of PCB Emissions in Digital Telematics Devices,"
>>     >
>>     > ITEM Update 2002, p56.
>>     >
>>     > [28] Staff of Mentor Graphics, "Design Rule Checks (DRC) for
>>     > QuietExpert," Mentor Graphics, June 2005
>>     >
>>     > [29] Staff of National Instruments, "Noise Figure Measurement with
>>     > the
>>     > National Instruments RF Signal Generator and RF Vector Signal
>>     > Analyzer,"
>>     > National Instruments, 2006
>>     > http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/3737
>>     >
>>     > [30] Henry W. Ott, /Noise Reduction Techniques in Electronic
>>     > Systems,
>>     > 2^nd Ed./, John Wiley & Sons, 1988. ISBN: 0-471-85068-3
>>     >
>>     > [31] Edward Pasahow, /Electronics Pocket Reference, 2^nd Ed/.,
>>     > McGraw-Hill, 1994. ISBN 0-07-048737-5
>>     >
>>     > [32] Clayton R. Paul, Introduction to Electromagnetic Compatibility,
>>     >
>>     > John Wiley & Sons, 1992. ISBN: 0-471-54927-4
>>     >
>>     > [33] R. A. Pease, /Troubleshooting Analog Circuits/, Newnes, 1991..
>>     > ISBN:
>>     > 0750694998
>>     >
>>     > [34] R. Perez, Editor, /Handbook of Electromagnetic Compatibility,/
>>     > Academic Press, Inc. 1995.
>>     >
>>     > [35] A. Peterson, S. Ray & R. Mittra, Computational Methods for
>>     > Electromagnetics, IEEE Press & Oxford University Press, 1998.
>>     >
>>     > [36] M. S. Phadke, /Quality Engineering Using Robust Design/,
>>     > Prentice-Hall, 1989.
>>     >
>>     > [37] Muhammad H. Rashid, Power /Electronics: Circuits, Devices and
>>     > Applications, 2^nd Ed./, Prentice Hall, 1993. ISBN 0-13-678996-X
>>     >
>>     > [38] Christoph Rauscher, /Fundamentals of Spectrum Analysis/, Rohde
>>     > &
>>     > Schwarz, ISBN: 978-3-939837-00-8
>>     >
>>     > [39] Staff, /Environmental Conditions and Test Procedures for
>>     > Airborne
>>     > Equipment, DO-160E,/ RTCA, Inc., 2004
>>     >
>>     > [41] Madhavan Swaminathan and A. Ege Engin, /Power Integrity
>>     > Modeling
>>     > and Design for Semiconductors and Systems,/ Prentice Hall, 2008.
>>     > ISBN:
>>     > 0-13-615206-6
>>     >
>>     > [42] Staff of Wavecrest, "Oscilloscope - Getting Started," Wavecrest
>>     >
>>     > 2001.
>>     >
>>     http://www.wavecrest.com/technical/VISI_6_Getting_Started_Guides/6oscillo
>>     scope.pdf
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > [44] Wikipedia, "Electronic test equipment"
>>     > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_test_equipment
>>     >
>>     > [45] Wikipedia, "Insulated-gate bipolar transistor"
>>     > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IGBT
>>     >
>>     > [46] A. B. Williams & F. J. Taylor, /Electronic Filter Design
>>     > Handbook,
>>     > 3^rd Ed./, McGraw-Hill, 1995.
>>     >
>>     > [47] Staff X2Y, "App Note # 3008, V1, Get the Most from X2Y
>>     > Capacitors
>>     > with Proper Attachment Techniques," X2Y Attenuators, LLC. 2/23/2006.
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     >
>>     > <#_ftnref1>
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > Good Luck
>>     >
>>     > Roy Leventhal
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > Avtaar Singh wrote:
>>     > > Gurus:
>>     > > Can someone please name the Top 5 Signal Integrity schools in the
>>     > US, for
>>     > > me?
>>     > >
>>     > > Thanks for the kind help!
>>     > >
>>     > > Regards,
>>     > > Avtaar
>>     > >
>>     > >
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