[SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
- From: Scott McMorrow <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: Roy Leventhal <Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:21:32 -0400
Roy
Matthias Troescher of SimLab, gave an impressive presentation on a
complete automotive EMI simulation and measurement correlation for a
complete automotive electrical system, including cabling, using SimLab,
CST Cable Studio and CST PCB Studio.
http://www.cst.com/Content/Documents/Events/NAUF2008/04-Troescher.pdf
Scott McMorrow
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
121 North River Drive
Narragansett, RI 02882
(401) 284-1827 Business
(401) 284-1840 Fax
http://www.teraspeed.com
Teraspeed® is the registered service mark of
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
Roy Leventhal wrote:
> Chris,
>
> For the past six years I have been advocating the use of more simulation
> tools among my EMI engineering colleagues (at work and in the IEEE EMC
> Society), so I am not unsympathetic to some of your points.
>
> I find many EMI engineers reluctant to use EDA tools and relatively few
> simultaneously cognizant of theory, estimating (yellow pad), simulation,
> and measurement in both SI and EMI. Meanwhile, I find continual progress
> being made by EDA tool vendors that should be continually evaluated by
> the EMI engineering discipline. I also find a growing level of
> acceptance of, an interest in, modeling and simulation tools.
>
> Historically, those EMI EDA tools have not been ready for prime time as
> far as EMI engineers are concerned. So they do what they have to do to
> get a product to pass regulatory: Test, measure, find and fix, and
> iterate until they get a product to pass.
>
> What I see is that when an EMI engineer is in a test cell measuring
> conducted and radiated emissions and susceptibility they are working
> with frequency spectrum scans. Those frequency spectrum scans are the
> data they have to present, not diagrams of eye opening and other SI
> plots. Simulating partial planes an IC package is part of the detailed
> design but usually too much detail for them to simulate at the system level.
>
> My first question is, can you provide me some insight into your model
> abstraction and simplification process? I usually can?t afford
> simulating a system down to the gate level when seeking EMI answers.
> Some modern CMOS models incorporate around 250 factors for around 50
> elements per gate and I/Os have multiple gates.
>
> Also, what models are you using for the IC? Are you using Berkeley
> SPICE, EKV, PSPICE, S-Parameter, large or small signal, or IBIS, or
> what? I?m seeing evidence that factors we can control at the system
> level are sometimes interactive AND non-linear and would like to know
> the best models to use and their valid frequency, voltage, and
> temperature limitations. I suspect that some of the non-linearities are
> due to power system noise modulation of my IC I/Os. I also would like to
> investigate if there is core-switching noise getting to my I/Os.
>
> Since I?m trying to correlate with hardware I would also need to know
> the distributions of the IC model parameters for the various parts on
> the board, as well as the passive components, and the variables for your
> dielectric uniformity, trace parameters, etc. I suspect that I?ll have
> to do a statistical simulation since in my prototypes I?m not quite sure
> which part of the distribution my parts came from. I would like to
> repeat the ?50 dB you achieved especially since I would expect to verify
> the results against hardware. What particular statistical method did you
> use in achieving your results? And when you verified those results did
> you do it against at least 25 working prototypes to remove the element
> of chance?
>
> How about your measurement repeatability, I assume its good. I know for
> myself that when cables are moved just a bit on my test bench my
> repeatability is a problem. The movement of objects in my anechoic
> chamber and the use of different measurement antennas seem to cause
> similar problems. Of course you have modeled all this in verifying your
> results, so I seek your guidance since as you state you have many years
> of both SI and EMI experience. Since I?m dealing with the safety of an
> airplane I can?t be too careful.
>
> Also, I?m seeing changes in my EMI results with changes in the data
> patterns on my boards and changes in the strengths of emitters in
> various positions on my boards. So I?m sure that your 50 dB EMI
> correlation must account for magnitude and phase at any place in your
> measurement chamber.
>
> One thing that upsets me is a 500 KHz switching power supply in my
> system that is producing significant harmonics out to 50 MHz and beyond.
> I know that if I simulate its effects that I?ll have to use a SPICE EDA
> tool that can model layout structure and converge with resonant
> circuits. I haven?t found one readily available that I can import my
> layout from Allegro into. Unfortunately, I have to contend with such
> beasties operating alongside my moderately fast digital stuff and I
> can?t quite do everything I want with the board stackup because I?m
> dealing with 10s to 100s of amps in my system, not milliamps to microamps..
>
> One of my EMI colleagues in another company has become more interested
> in simulation (I think I inspired him a little) and who is working with
> some first class EMI EDA companies. A real breakthrough was achieved
> when his technical contact said ?Aha, you want a virtual test bench so
> you can directly compare simulation to measurement.? They?re working on
> it and achieving some good, if varied results. They?ll need such a tool
> when they need to do a quick turn-around on a design iteration. But, he
> didn?t indicate 50 dB correlations real soon. They had to simplify the
> problem to get it to run in a reasonable time. One thing they didn?t do
> is model the antenna.
>
> Do I believe that EMI modeling and simulation is an absolute necessity?
> You bet I do. But, I see a different world with different emphasizes and
> needs that will have to be addressed by EDA vendors before the much
> criticized and much harried ?average? EMI engineer can be successfully
> engaged in making greater use of those tools.
>
> I have many more questions about the issues I raised above and some
> others I have. I?m sure that we?ll get into them after you have
> instructed me further in my deficiencies as you have already kindly
> done. I know that I don?t know near enough in my business and I?m open
> to your instruction.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Roy
>
>
> Chris Cheng wrote:
>
>> I walked many miles in EMI and still do.
>> My company had never and will never have EMI only design engineers. I
>> am responsible for anything that is not 1 and 0 in our system. I don't
>> care if it is call SI or EMI. Analog is analog. Any engineer who work
>> for me is capable of doing both.
>>
>>> As things stand today any EMI engineer can tell you that they can
>>> make an entire
>>> career on fixing prototype SI/EMI problems based on the same
>>> half-dozen principles
>>>
>> I am still waiting for you to tell me how your EMI engineer can make
>> their career out of my examples below.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Charlotte and/or Roy Leventhal [mailto:crleventhal@xxxxxxxxxxx]
>> *Sent:* Sun 3/23/2008 8:08 PM
>> *To:* Chris Cheng; olaney@xxxxxxxx; Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
>> *Cc:* avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> *Subject:* RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
>>
>> Chris,
>> I'm heavily into using modeling and simulation. Check my website:
>> http://www.semiconductorsimulation.com
>> <http://www.semiconductorsimulation.com/>. I'm also a great advocate
>> of combining EDA tools with the yellow pad for maximum efficiency and
>> understanding.
>> I recently had/have the opportunity to do some EMI engineering. Before
>> either SI engineers cast aspersions on EMI engineers or vice-versa I
>> suggest they walk in the others' moccasins a few miles.
>> You are right that EMI engineers will have to be better tool users in
>> the future. Why don't you help them get started, as I am trying to do?
>> Best Regards
>> Roy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx]
>> *Sent:* Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:52 PM
>> *To:* olaney@xxxxxxxx; Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
>> *Cc:* avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> *Subject:* RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
>>
>> I would love to learn how to model a multi-giga bit channel with
>> accuracy down to -50db with a yellow pad.
>> I would love to learn how to predict eye openings of heavily
>> loaded DDR2/3 buses with multiple loads and multiple branches and
>> driving positions under sso and crosstalk conditions with a yellow
>> pad.
>> I would love to learn how to model package interconnects that has
>> imperfect return reference planes with a yellow pad.
>> I would love to learn how to deliver power to a multi-giga hertz
>> IC where the power grid and via structure is inherited 2 1/2 and
>> 3D with a yellow pad.
>> Are you sure we are talking about the same SI work here ? What
>> does your average EMI engineer knows about the above anyways ?
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of olaney@xxxxxxxx
>> *Sent:* Sun 3/23/2008 2:07 PM
>> *To:* Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
>> *Cc:* avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> *Subject:* [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
>>
>>
>> The symptom we see today is that many designers are heavily
>> reliant upon
>> really big, expensive software tools to iterate empirical designs into
>> something workable. The same designer, given adequate understanding of
>> the underlying principles, can often do 90% of the work on a
>> yellow pad,
>> then use software for cleanup and as a sanity check. When I see SI
>> related job descriptions that want work experience with a big list of
>> tools, I can readily guess what the company mindset is:
>> substitution of
>> tools for competence, and bring in the consultants when they get into
>> trouble.
>>
>> Orin
>>
>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:53:44 -0500 Roy Leventhal
>> <Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx>
>> writes:
>> > Avtaar,
>> >
>> > It seems strange to me that in the present/coming years of
>> > "microwave
>> > digital" that we will be graduating logic designers who will be
>> > unable to
>> > get their signals across a PCB or keep those signals from
>> > interfering with
>> > other signals.
>> >
>> > As things stand today any EMI engineer can tell you that they can
>> > make an entire
>> > career on fixing prototype SI/EMI problems based on the same
>> > half-dozen principles
>> > from SI/EMI 101. But, fixing problems in hardware instead of
>> > catching them in the
>> > virtual design not working smart. Part of the challenge of working
>> > smart is applying
>> > principles and analysis early in development. The logic designer is
>> > best positioned
>> > to do that or involve specialist to do it for him or her.
>> >
>> > First we had the analog age. Then we had the digital age. Now I
>> > believe we
>> > have the dawning of the age of fast impulse signals driving logic
>> > circuits.
>> >
>> > Meanwhile our schools are, as always, a day late and a dollar short
>> > - not
>> > necessarily a few individual professors and schools here and there.
>> > When I got my
>> > BSEE in 1962 my professors were still teaching me about vacuum tubes
>> > and had barely
>> > started seriously considering teaching transistors. This is despite
>> > the fact that
>> > industry had developed viable transistors for nearly a decade by
>> > then.
>> >
>> > The IEEE EMC Society is just now making a credible effort to address
>> > signal
>> > integrity. But, signal integrity has been a driving issue for about
>> > 20
>> > years now.
>> >
>> > It is hard to evolve institutionalized cultures (schools,
>> > professional societies, and
>> > old-line companies) and thinking. They are, after all, in the
>> > business of perpetuating
>> > their PAST successes and expertise.
>> >
>> > The advice about UM-R is good. So is the advice about noting which
>> > professors and
>> > schools are publishing in the latest technologies. Beyond that, stay
>> > informed and well
>> > ead from industry-oriented trade magazines in those latest
>> > technologies on your own.
>> > Let me suggest High Frequency, Conformity, and the IEEE EMC Society
>> > quarterly newsletter.
>> >
>> > Lastly, here is a reading list of reference textbooks you can
>> > consider perusing:
>> >
>> >
>> > [1] Staff of Agilent Technologies, "Time Domain Reflectometry
>> > Theory,"
>> > Application Note 1304-2 Hewlett-Packard, 2006.
>> >
>> > See also:
>> >
>> > Staff of HP, "Time Domain Reflectometry Theory," Application Note
>> > 1304-2
>> > Hewlett-Packard, 1988.
>> > http://www.lthe.hmg.inpg.fr/medite/5966-4855E.pdf
>> >
>> > [2] Staff of Agilent, "Manuals: Network Analyzers," Various,
>> > down-loadable, Agilent.
>> >
>> http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=153424.i.2&to=80039.k.1&;
>>
>> <http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=153424.i.2&to=80039.k.1&;>
>> cc=US&lc=eng&no=225
>> >
>> >
>> <http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=153424.i.2&to=80039.k.1
>> &cc=US&lc=eng&no=225>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > [3] C. Antonescu, P.D. Ewing, "EMI/RFI and Power Surge Withstand
>> > Guidance for the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission."
>> >
>> > [4] Bruce R. Archambeault, "Shielding of Air Vent Holes," page 102
>> > IEEE
>> > EMC Society Newsletter, Issue # 215, Fall 2007
>> >
>> > [5] Bruce R. Archambeault and James L. Drewniak, /PCB Design for
>> > Real
>> > World EMI Control/, Springer, 2002. ISBN: 1-4020-7130-2
>> >
>> > [6] Bill Ashley, "Using the Network Analyzer as a Grid Dip
>> > Oscillator,"
>> > AN 132 AEA Technology, Inc., 2005
>> >
>> http://www.aeatechnology.com/usermanuals/AN132%20Using%20the%20Network%20
>> Analyzer%20as%20a%20Grid%20Dip%20Oscillator.pdf
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > [7] Eric Bogatin, /Signal Integrity: Simplified/, Prentice Hall,
>> > 2004.
>> > ISBN: 0-13-066946-6
>> >
>> > [8] Marty Brown, "Good Physical Layout Takes Black Magic Out of
>> > Power
>> > Supply Design," EDA Design Line, 2000.
>> > http://www.edadesignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?article?ID=192200741
>> >
>> > [9] Nachyuck Chang, "Theory of Oscilloscope," SNU.
>> > http://elpl.snu.ac.kr/csd07/lecturenote/4_dso.pdf
>> >
>> > [10] Sonia Ben Dhia, Mohamed Ramdani, and Etienne Sicard,
>> > /Electromagnetic Compatibility of Integrated Circuits: Techniques
>> > for
>> > Low Emission and Susceptibility,/ Springer, 2005. ISBN:
>> >
>> > [11] Mike Eberly and Larry Dunleavy, "Student's Introduction to the
>> > HP8714 RF Network Analyzer," 1998
>> > http://ee.eng.usf.edu/people/dunleavy/references/reading2.pdf
>> >
>> > [12] Morris Engelson and Fred Telewski, /Spectrum Analyzer Theory
>> > and
>> > Applications,/ Artech House, 1974. ISBN-10: 089006024X, ISBN-13:
>> > 978-0890060247
>> >
>> > [13] Y. W. Fowlkes, C. L. Creveling, /Engineering Methods for Robust
>> >
>> > Product Design/, Addison-Wesley, 1995.
>> >
>> > [14] Gene Garat, and Staff of IBM, "EMSAT Rules Checker 16 Rules,"
>> > Moss
>> > Bay EDA and IBM, http://www.mossbayeda.com/EMSAT-Rules.pdf, March
>> > 2006.
>> >
>> > [15] Michael Hiebel, /Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis/,
>> > Rohde &
>> > Schwarz, ISBN: 978-3-939837-0
>> >
>> > [16] Todd Hubing, "Circuit Board Layout to Reduce Noise Emission and
>> >
>> > Susceptibility," University of Missouri - Rolla, March 2006
>> >
>> > [17] Multivariate Statistical Analysis: IBM Data Explorer,
>> > http://www.research.ibm.com/dx/
>> >
>> > [18] Staff, ICEM #62014-3, "Electromagnetic Compatibility Part 3
>> > Integrated Circuits Electrical Modeling," IEC Standard Proposal/,
>> > /2002.
>> >
>> > [19] Staff, IEC # 61000-4-2, "Electromagnetic Compatibility Part 4-2
>> >
>> > Testing and Measurement Techniques - Electrostatic Discharge
>> > Immunity
>> > Test, IEC, 2001. ISBN: 2-8318-5687-6
>> >
>> > [20] Yoonjae Lee and Raj Mittra, "Electromagnetic Interference
>> > Mitigation by Using a Spread-Spectrum Approach," IEEE Transactions
>> > on
>> > Electromagnetic Compatibility, Vol. 44, No. 2, May 2002.
>> >
>> > [22] Roy Leventhal and Lynne Green, Semiconductor Modeling: For
>> > Simulating Signal, Power and Electromagnetic Integrity, Springer,
>> > 2006.
>> > ISBN 0-387-24159-0
>> >
>> > [23] Michel Mardiguian, /Controlling Radiated Emissions by Design,
>> > 2^nd
>> > Ed.,/ Springer, 2001. ISBN: 0792379780
>> >
>> > [24] F. D. Martzloff, "Lightening and NEMP Transient Protection with
>> >
>> > Metal Oxide Varistors," General Electric Technical Information
>> > Series
>> > 82CRD084, 1982.
>> >
>> > [25] Staff, Maxim, "A Beginners Guide to Filter Topologies,"
>> > Application
>> > Note 1762 Maxim, Inc., 2002,
>> > http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/1762
>> >
>> > [26] Staff, Maxim, "EMI/EMC Suppression in Audio/Video Interfaces,"
>> > Application Note 3882 Maxim, Inc., 2006,
>> > http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/3882
>> >
>> > [27] Scott Mee, Roy Leventhal, Al Wexler and Mike Ventham,
>> > "Simulation
>> > for the Suppression of PCB Emissions in Digital Telematics Devices,"
>> >
>> > ITEM Update 2002, p56.
>> >
>> > [28] Staff of Mentor Graphics, "Design Rule Checks (DRC) for
>> > QuietExpert," Mentor Graphics, June 2005
>> >
>> > [29] Staff of National Instruments, "Noise Figure Measurement with
>> > the
>> > National Instruments RF Signal Generator and RF Vector Signal
>> > Analyzer,"
>> > National Instruments, 2006
>> > http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/3737
>> >
>> > [30] Henry W. Ott, /Noise Reduction Techniques in Electronic
>> > Systems,
>> > 2^nd Ed./, John Wiley & Sons, 1988. ISBN: 0-471-85068-3
>> >
>> > [31] Edward Pasahow, /Electronics Pocket Reference, 2^nd Ed/.,
>> > McGraw-Hill, 1994. ISBN 0-07-048737-5
>> >
>> > [32] Clayton R. Paul, Introduction to Electromagnetic Compatibility,
>> >
>> > John Wiley & Sons, 1992. ISBN: 0-471-54927-4
>> >
>> > [33] R. A. Pease, /Troubleshooting Analog Circuits/, Newnes, 1991..
>> > ISBN:
>> > 0750694998
>> >
>> > [34] R. Perez, Editor, /Handbook of Electromagnetic Compatibility,/
>> > Academic Press, Inc. 1995.
>> >
>> > [35] A. Peterson, S. Ray & R. Mittra, Computational Methods for
>> > Electromagnetics, IEEE Press & Oxford University Press, 1998.
>> >
>> > [36] M. S. Phadke, /Quality Engineering Using Robust Design/,
>> > Prentice-Hall, 1989.
>> >
>> > [37] Muhammad H. Rashid, Power /Electronics: Circuits, Devices and
>> > Applications, 2^nd Ed./, Prentice Hall, 1993. ISBN 0-13-678996-X
>> >
>> > [38] Christoph Rauscher, /Fundamentals of Spectrum Analysis/, Rohde
>> > &
>> > Schwarz, ISBN: 978-3-939837-00-8
>> >
>> > [39] Staff, /Environmental Conditions and Test Procedures for
>> > Airborne
>> > Equipment, DO-160E,/ RTCA, Inc., 2004
>> >
>> > [41] Madhavan Swaminathan and A. Ege Engin, /Power Integrity
>> > Modeling
>> > and Design for Semiconductors and Systems,/ Prentice Hall, 2008.
>> > ISBN:
>> > 0-13-615206-6
>> >
>> > [42] Staff of Wavecrest, "Oscilloscope - Getting Started," Wavecrest
>> >
>> > 2001.
>> >
>> http://www.wavecrest.com/technical/VISI_6_Getting_Started_Guides/6oscillo
>> scope.pdf
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > [44] Wikipedia, "Electronic test equipment"
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_test_equipment
>> >
>> > [45] Wikipedia, "Insulated-gate bipolar transistor"
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IGBT
>> >
>> > [46] A. B. Williams & F. J. Taylor, /Electronic Filter Design
>> > Handbook,
>> > 3^rd Ed./, McGraw-Hill, 1995.
>> >
>> > [47] Staff X2Y, "App Note # 3008, V1, Get the Most from X2Y
>> > Capacitors
>> > with Proper Attachment Techniques," X2Y Attenuators, LLC. 2/23/2006.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > <#_ftnref1>
>> >
>> >
>> > Good Luck
>> >
>> > Roy Leventhal
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Avtaar Singh wrote:
>> > > Gurus:
>> > > Can someone please name the Top 5 Signal Integrity schools in the
>> > US, for
>> > > me?
>> > >
>> > > Thanks for the kind help!
>> > >
>> > > Regards,
>> > > Avtaar
>> > >
>> > >
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