Amen, Brother Chris! Scott McMorrow Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com Teraspeed® is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC Chris Cheng wrote: > I would love to learn how to model a multi-giga bit channel with accuracy > down to -50db with a yellow pad. > I would love to learn how to predict eye openings of heavily loaded DDR2/3 > buses with multiple loads and multiple branches and driving positions under > sso and crosstalk conditions with a yellow pad. > I would love to learn how to model package interconnects that has imperfect > return reference planes with a yellow pad. > I would love to learn how to deliver power to a multi-giga hertz IC where the > power grid and via structure is inherited 2 1/2 and 3D with a yellow pad. > > Are you sure we are talking about the same SI work here ? What does your > average EMI engineer knows about the above anyways ? > ________________________________ > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of olaney@xxxxxxxx > Sent: Sun 3/23/2008 2:07 PM > To: Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx > Cc: avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA > > > > > The symptom we see today is that many designers are heavily reliant upon > really big, expensive software tools to iterate empirical designs into > something workable. The same designer, given adequate understanding of > the underlying principles, can often do 90% of the work on a yellow pad, > then use software for cleanup and as a sanity check. When I see SI > related job descriptions that want work experience with a big list of > tools, I can readily guess what the company mindset is: substitution of > tools for competence, and bring in the consultants when they get into > trouble. > > Orin > > On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:53:44 -0500 Roy Leventhal <Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx> > writes: > >> Avtaar, >> >> It seems strange to me that in the present/coming years of >> "microwave >> digital" that we will be graduating logic designers who will be >> unable to >> get their signals across a PCB or keep those signals from >> interfering with >> other signals. >> >> As things stand today any EMI engineer can tell you that they can >> make an entire >> career on fixing prototype SI/EMI problems based on the same >> half-dozen principles >> from SI/EMI 101. But, fixing problems in hardware instead of >> catching them in the >> virtual design not working smart. Part of the challenge of working >> smart is applying >> principles and analysis early in development. The logic designer is >> best positioned >> to do that or involve specialist to do it for him or her. >> >> First we had the analog age. Then we had the digital age. Now I >> believe we >> have the dawning of the age of fast impulse signals driving logic >> circuits. >> >> Meanwhile our schools are, as always, a day late and a dollar short >> - not >> necessarily a few individual professors and schools here and there. >> When I got my >> BSEE in 1962 my professors were still teaching me about vacuum tubes >> and had barely >> started seriously considering teaching transistors. This is despite >> the fact that >> industry had developed viable transistors for nearly a decade by >> then. >> >> The IEEE EMC Society is just now making a credible effort to address >> signal >> integrity. But, signal integrity has been a driving issue for about >> 20 >> years now. >> >> It is hard to evolve institutionalized cultures (schools, >> professional societies, and >> old-line companies) and thinking. They are, after all, in the >> business of perpetuating >> their PAST successes and expertise. >> >> The advice about UM-R is good. So is the advice about noting which >> professors and >> schools are publishing in the latest technologies. Beyond that, stay >> informed and well >> ead from industry-oriented trade magazines in those latest >> technologies on your own. >> Let me suggest High Frequency, Conformity, and the IEEE EMC Society >> quarterly newsletter. >> >> Lastly, here is a reading list of reference textbooks you can >> consider perusing: >> >> >> [1] Staff of Agilent Technologies, "Time Domain Reflectometry >> Theory," >> Application Note 1304-2 Hewlett-Packard, 2006. >> >> See also: >> >> Staff of HP, "Time Domain Reflectometry Theory," Application Note >> 1304-2 >> Hewlett-Packard, 1988. >> http://www.lthe.hmg.inpg.fr/medite/5966-4855E.pdf >> >> [2] Staff of Agilent, "Manuals: Network Analyzers," Various, >> down-loadable, Agilent. >> >> > http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=153424.i.2&to=80039.k.1&; > cc=US&lc=eng&no=225 > >> > <http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=153424.i.2&to=80039.k.1 > &cc=US&lc=eng&no=225> > >> >> [3] C. Antonescu, P.D. Ewing, "EMI/RFI and Power Surge Withstand >> Guidance for the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission." >> >> [4] Bruce R. Archambeault, "Shielding of Air Vent Holes," page 102 >> IEEE >> EMC Society Newsletter, Issue # 215, Fall 2007 >> >> [5] Bruce R. Archambeault and James L. Drewniak, /PCB Design for >> Real >> World EMI Control/, Springer, 2002. ISBN: 1-4020-7130-2 >> >> [6] Bill Ashley, "Using the Network Analyzer as a Grid Dip >> Oscillator," >> AN 132 AEA Technology, Inc., 2005 >> >> > http://www.aeatechnology.com/usermanuals/AN132%20Using%20the%20Network%20 > Analyzer%20as%20a%20Grid%20Dip%20Oscillator.pdf > >> >> [7] Eric Bogatin, /Signal Integrity: Simplified/, Prentice Hall, >> 2004. >> ISBN: 0-13-066946-6 >> >> [8] Marty Brown, "Good Physical Layout Takes Black Magic Out of >> Power >> Supply Design," EDA Design Line, 2000. >> http://www.edadesignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?article?ID=192200741 >> >> [9] Nachyuck Chang, "Theory of Oscilloscope," SNU. >> http://elpl.snu.ac.kr/csd07/lecturenote/4_dso.pdf >> >> [10] Sonia Ben Dhia, Mohamed Ramdani, and Etienne Sicard, >> /Electromagnetic Compatibility of Integrated Circuits: Techniques >> for >> Low Emission and Susceptibility,/ Springer, 2005. ISBN: >> >> [11] Mike Eberly and Larry Dunleavy, "Student's Introduction to the >> HP8714 RF Network Analyzer," 1998 >> http://ee.eng.usf.edu/people/dunleavy/references/reading2.pdf >> >> [12] Morris Engelson and Fred Telewski, /Spectrum Analyzer Theory >> and >> Applications,/ Artech House, 1974. ISBN-10: 089006024X, ISBN-13: >> 978-0890060247 >> >> [13] Y. W. Fowlkes, C. L. Creveling, /Engineering Methods for Robust >> >> Product Design/, Addison-Wesley, 1995. >> >> [14] Gene Garat, and Staff of IBM, "EMSAT Rules Checker 16 Rules," >> Moss >> Bay EDA and IBM, http://www.mossbayeda.com/EMSAT-Rules.pdf, March >> 2006. >> >> [15] Michael Hiebel, /Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis/, >> Rohde & >> Schwarz, ISBN: 978-3-939837-0 >> >> [16] Todd Hubing, "Circuit Board Layout to Reduce Noise Emission and >> >> Susceptibility," University of Missouri - Rolla, March 2006 >> >> [17] Multivariate Statistical Analysis: IBM Data Explorer, >> http://www.research.ibm.com/dx/ >> >> [18] Staff, ICEM #62014-3, "Electromagnetic Compatibility Part 3 >> Integrated Circuits Electrical Modeling," IEC Standard Proposal/, >> /2002. >> >> [19] Staff, IEC # 61000-4-2, "Electromagnetic Compatibility Part 4-2 >> >> Testing and Measurement Techniques - Electrostatic Discharge >> Immunity >> Test, IEC, 2001. ISBN: 2-8318-5687-6 >> >> [20] Yoonjae Lee and Raj Mittra, "Electromagnetic Interference >> Mitigation by Using a Spread-Spectrum Approach," IEEE Transactions >> on >> Electromagnetic Compatibility, Vol. 44, No. 2, May 2002. >> >> [22] Roy Leventhal and Lynne Green, Semiconductor Modeling: For >> Simulating Signal, Power and Electromagnetic Integrity, Springer, >> 2006. >> ISBN 0-387-24159-0 >> >> [23] Michel Mardiguian, /Controlling Radiated Emissions by Design, >> 2^nd >> Ed.,/ Springer, 2001. ISBN: 0792379780 >> >> [24] F. D. Martzloff, "Lightening and NEMP Transient Protection with >> >> Metal Oxide Varistors," General Electric Technical Information >> Series >> 82CRD084, 1982. >> >> [25] Staff, Maxim, "A Beginners Guide to Filter Topologies," >> Application >> Note 1762 Maxim, Inc., 2002, >> http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/1762 >> >> [26] Staff, Maxim, "EMI/EMC Suppression in Audio/Video Interfaces," >> Application Note 3882 Maxim, Inc., 2006, >> http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/3882 >> >> [27] Scott Mee, Roy Leventhal, Al Wexler and Mike Ventham, >> "Simulation >> for the Suppression of PCB Emissions in Digital Telematics Devices," >> >> ITEM Update 2002, p56. >> >> [28] Staff of Mentor Graphics, "Design Rule Checks (DRC) for >> QuietExpert," Mentor Graphics, June 2005 >> >> [29] Staff of National Instruments, "Noise Figure Measurement with >> the >> National Instruments RF Signal Generator and RF Vector Signal >> Analyzer," >> National Instruments, 2006 >> http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/3737 >> >> [30] Henry W. Ott, /Noise Reduction Techniques in Electronic >> Systems, >> 2^nd Ed./, John Wiley & Sons, 1988. ISBN: 0-471-85068-3 >> >> [31] Edward Pasahow, /Electronics Pocket Reference, 2^nd Ed/., >> McGraw-Hill, 1994. ISBN 0-07-048737-5 >> >> [32] Clayton R. Paul, Introduction to Electromagnetic Compatibility, >> >> John Wiley & Sons, 1992. ISBN: 0-471-54927-4 >> >> [33] R. A. Pease, /Troubleshooting Analog Circuits/, Newnes, 1991. >> ISBN: >> 0750694998 >> >> [34] R. Perez, Editor, /Handbook of Electromagnetic Compatibility,/ >> Academic Press, Inc. 1995. >> >> [35] A. Peterson, S. Ray & R. Mittra, Computational Methods for >> Electromagnetics, IEEE Press & Oxford University Press, 1998. >> >> [36] M. S. Phadke, /Quality Engineering Using Robust Design/, >> Prentice-Hall, 1989. >> >> [37] Muhammad H. Rashid, Power /Electronics: Circuits, Devices and >> Applications, 2^nd Ed./, Prentice Hall, 1993. ISBN 0-13-678996-X >> >> [38] Christoph Rauscher, /Fundamentals of Spectrum Analysis/, Rohde >> & >> Schwarz, ISBN: 978-3-939837-00-8 >> >> [39] Staff, /Environmental Conditions and Test Procedures for >> Airborne >> Equipment, DO-160E,/ RTCA, Inc., 2004 >> >> [41] Madhavan Swaminathan and A. Ege Engin, /Power Integrity >> Modeling >> and Design for Semiconductors and Systems,/ Prentice Hall, 2008. >> ISBN: >> 0-13-615206-6 >> >> [42] Staff of Wavecrest, "Oscilloscope - Getting Started," Wavecrest >> >> 2001. >> >> > http://www.wavecrest.com/technical/VISI_6_Getting_Started_Guides/6oscillo > scope.pdf > >> >> [44] Wikipedia, "Electronic test equipment" >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_test_equipment >> >> [45] Wikipedia, "Insulated-gate bipolar transistor" >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IGBT >> >> [46] A. B. Williams & F. J. Taylor, /Electronic Filter Design >> Handbook, >> 3^rd Ed./, McGraw-Hill, 1995. >> >> [47] Staff X2Y, "App Note # 3008, V1, Get the Most from X2Y >> Capacitors >> with Proper Attachment Techniques," X2Y Attenuators, LLC. 2/23/2006. >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> <#_ftnref1> >> >> >> Good Luck >> >> Roy Leventhal >> >> >> >> Avtaar Singh wrote: >> >>> Gurus: >>> Can someone please name the Top 5 Signal Integrity schools in the >>> >> US, for >> >>> me? >>> >>> Thanks for the kind help! >>> >>> Regards, >>> Avtaar >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject >>> >> field >> >>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >>> >>> For help: >>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >>> >>> >>> List technical documents are available at: >>> http://www.si-list.net <http://www.si-list.net/> >>> >>> List archives are viewable at: >>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>> or at our remote archives: >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject >> field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> >> List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.net <http://www.si-list.net/> >> >> List archives are viewable at: >> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> or at our remote archives: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net <http://www.si-list.net/> > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain private, confidential, and > privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient. 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