[SI-LIST] Re: Article discussion on bad packages
- From: "Zhiping Yang" <zhiping@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:24:28 -0800
Hi Chris,
I have watched this topic for a while. There are a lot of valuable comments
from the SI experts.
I agree with you that existing IBIS model is not accurate and correct for
SSO type analysis, but that does not mean there is no solution to solve the
SSO problem by using behavior I/O models. At least, a proposed RBF behavior
model from Prof. Canavero showed good results for SSO simulations.
For the IBIS model, I think we already know the problems or shortcomings why
it is not good for SSO simulation. Recently we (Cisco SI engineers)
submitted a IBIS BIRD (BIRD95) to address this issue. I have to admit that
our current proposal may not completely solve this problem in one step, but
it could significantly increase the IBIS capabilities in SSO simulations (we
believe). In long term, I believe the SSO simulation could be correctly
done by IBIS model with the expanding of the IBIS itself. This is the IBIS
activity Istvan mentioned in his previous e-mail. As Istvan mentioned,
there are other parallel activities with IEEE standard committee and
DesignCon on the power integrity. With all the inputs and efforts from the
industry experts, we believe that power integrity problem could be correctly
modeled and solved in the future.
Best regards,
Zhiping
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Cheng" <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:12 PM
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Article discussion on bad packages
> Istvan,
> I thought I understand enough of your company's design methodologies (I
> worked on quite a few of them). So I am surprised to hear your response.
Can
> you honest tell me your company is not running SPICE on "sophisticated IO
> circuits" to analyze its performance nor using it to analyze core power
> distribution ? Are you relying only on IBIS nowadays ? Or you are
preaching
> something you don't practice yourself ?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Istvan NOVAK
> To: Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: 12/28/2004 8:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Article discussion on bad packages
>
> Chris,
>
> If you want to simulate PDN SSN, you can do either a
> transistor-level SPICE simulation together with the PDN
> model, or an approximate behavioral model simulation can
> be done. For smaller circuits, transistor level models may
> work in SPICE (if you have access to it). For large chunks
> of silicon, like CPU cores and sophisticated IO circuits, the
> SPICE model may be prohibitively large. Also, for many
> users of third-party silicons, transistor-level SPICE model
> may not be available. For the above reasons, behavioral
> simulations may still be better than doing no simulations at all
>
> Regards,
>
> Istvan Novak
> SUN Microsystems
>
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