[SI-LIST] Re: 2D vs 3D EM based signal integrity simulators
- From: "Yuriy Shlepnev" <shlepnev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "'Heyfitch'" <heyfitch@xxxxxxxx>, "'Istvan Nagy'" <buenos@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "'si-list'" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 14:25:48 -0800
Hi Vadim,
I understand your frustration and would like to elaborate on some issues.
As you pointed out, the bottom line for an engineer is how the simulations
correlate with the measurements.
Considering the measurements, at microwave frequencies it may be as
difficult as the analysis (certainly more expensive). Different assumptions,
calibration techniques, post-processing and so on may lead to completely
unusable data. Together with Teraspeed and Samtec we will have a tutorial at
DesignCon 2010 on how to estimate and improve quality of your broad-band
measurements
http://www.designcon.com/2010/attendees/tf_ma12/index.asp
There will be a lot of interesting examples there and I would like to invite
everyone interested in the quality of broad-band interconnect models in
general.
Considering the simulation, the area of electromagnetic analysis for SI and
PI applications is relatively new and fast evolving area of the
computational electromagnetics. That is why there are a lot of mis-concepts,
misleading terminology and misunderstanding and miscommunication between EDA
vendors and engineers. Very complex geometry and large electrical size of
the problems at microwave frequencies, extremely wide frequency band of
digital signals, composite dielectrics and conductor roughness and so on
make such problems different from more established area of electromagnetic
analysis of RF and microwave structures.
The only possible way to make your design predictable from DC up to 10-40
GHz is to use the structures that can be reliably simulated in that
frequency range (benchmark boards such as PLRD-1 from Teraspeed is a good
example of such approach). That is similar to what microwave engineers do.
Some engineers are already practicing it and enjoying the results, but for
most of the industry this is a shift of paradigm (unless some vendors will
come out with a tool that will accurately simulate whatever a layout guy was
able to come up with - I do not think it will happen in this decade :-)
Best regards,
Yuriy
www.simberian.com
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Heyfitch
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 12:27 PM
To: Istvan Nagy; si-list
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: 2D vs 3D EM based signal integrity simulators
Sorely missing in this discussion is someone coming with a statement like
this: "I have tried these 5 different solvers and also performed 3 types of
measurements with these 3 kinds of de-embedding schemes. Here are the
results comparing all of the above. Solutions A, B, and C have obvious
problems for the following reasons ... - even without comparison to the
measurements. Whereas solutions D and F are plausibly correct - however they
are a little bit different from each other and from every one of the 3
measurements."
Such statement would provide a good ground for further discussion. In
reality, no one working on a system design has the time to do such
comparison or access to various tools, the former reason being more acute
than the latter. EDA vendors, who could do such a comparison, don't come out
with such date publicly even when they have done such comparison internally
and have the data in hand. (There is a number of reasons for them not to.)
So, what's next, ladies and gentlemen? Are we going to continue to praise
the one or two EDA tools we use? Just look at the papers published at
DesignCon every year: half of them - if not more - are authored jointly by a
hardware/SI engineer and an application engineer from an EDA company. That
is not a bad approach as it gets one in good graces with the EDA vendor
he/she chose to pitch for. Hence, free temporary licenses, price discount,
etc. I too have done it myself.... For now, we are all stuck in this
circular discussion "which solver is better", which reignites every now and
then.
The labels like "3D" or "2.5D" are overused and oversold. No one really
knows what they mean anymore. They should not be used AS ARGUMENTS for or
against any EDA tool.
My personal preference is for the EDA vendors who allow their developers to
speak directly to SI/HW engineers - not necessarily thru an AE/FAE/Mktg
engineer in between. This way you, the user, at least have a chance to ask
more technical "why?" questions and get hopefully a truthful answer. Or, am
I kidding myself about the latter? Even the app notes and presentations that
EDA vendors put out there for us to see are of two kinds:
1) look at the new GUI we just added so that now we are caught up to our
competitor(s) and can do what they could 12 months ago. Pat on the back..
2) we have added this algorithm, that does so and so. It's limitations,
though, are such and such, because of the following...
So, what is next for us? ...DesingCon2010, I suppose ;-)
Vadim
2010/1/14 Istvan Nagy <buenos@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Hi experts,
>
> I would like to ask your opinions about the following:
> Which one is "better", using 2D or 3D electromagnetics computation based
> signal integrity simulators?
>
> The point is to get a voltage-time waveform at/inside the receiver, with
> accurate enough electromagnetic modeling of the PCB interconnections. We
> should get realistic waveforms even on boards without a perfect groung
> plane. The non-perfect ground plane is the main reason why this topic has
> been opened, on real product, the ground plane is never perfect for all
the
> signals on all the buses. For the following interfaces: 133MHz PCI-X,
> DDR1-400MHz, DDR2, DDR3-1066MHz, SATA, PCI-express-2.5Gbps, 10Gig
ethernet.
> If there are splits in the reference planes, it forces the return currents
> away from the traces cousing reflections, impedance change, EMI, and
> crosstalk. We want to se the effect of these as well. If someone is not an
> academic, but a practising design engineer, then he/she knows that to have
> perfect reference planes (current return paths) on a computer motherboard
> (or similar product) is mostly just a dream. Some people say "dont route
> the
> critical signals over discontinuities", but if we have 500 of these
signals
> on a 160mm x 80mm x86-SBC board, then we just can not make it. this is
when
> we have to simulate how bad it is for the signal integrity.
>
> For 2D, I would mention Hyperlynx as an example. As far as I know, it
finds
> segments of the PCB trace structure where the cross section geometry is
> constant (for example 2 traces 0.2mm gap for 22 milimeter length, then
they
> get closer to 0.15mm for another 10mm, so then the program divides it to 2
> segments), then runs a 2D field solver (meshes the cross-section) to get
> per-unit-length parameters (maybe tline-Z0 or R, L, G, C), then internally
> runs a time domain simulation using these lumped parameters and the IBIS
> models of the buffer circuits to get the final time domain waveforms. This
> segmentation does not deal very well sith layer transitions, and the 2D
> computations (by their nature) presume perfect reference planes.
>
> For 3D, I would mention the Agilent ADS+Momenum macromodeling simulator.
It
> does not take segment-models, but meshes the whole 3D geometry and runs a
> frequency domain field-solver to get a touchstone macromodel, then we
build
> a simulation circuit with this model and the IBIS models to run the time
> domain simulation to get the voltage/time signal waveforms.
>
> Advantages, 2D:
> -fast, we get results within a minute.
> -it can use a lot higher density on the cross-section mesh, since it only
> meshes the cross sections, and the problem-size is still lower than it is
> for a 3D simulation. This leads to more accurate impedance and skin-effect
> computations.
> -we can simulate a full memory bus with 64 signals and get a timing result
> spreadsheet.
> -it runs on a normal desktop PC.
>
> Disadvantages, 2D:
> -does NOT model non-perfect reference planes: plane splits,
antipad-fields,
> layer transitions, stitching vias, decoupling capacitor return paths...
> -when a signal changes layer on a eg 14 layer board, the return currents
> have to follow it to the reference planes of the new signal layer. this
can
> be modeled only in 3D simulation. The 2D simulator models a via with
lumped
> RLC elements. It presumes that the return current disappears from the
plane
> at the signal via and reappears on the other reference planes by some
> magic.
> This obviously does not happen on a real board. Most of the cases we just
> can not afford to have stitching vias at every signal via, so the lack-of
> them should be modeled. The 3D simulators simulate this.
>
> Advantages, 3D:
> -it does exactly model non-perfect reference planes: plane splits,
> antipad-fields, stitching vias, decoupling capacitor return paths...
> -when a signal changes layer on a eg 14 layer board, the return currents
> have to follow it to the reference planes of the new signal layer. this
can
> be modeled only in 3D simulation. The 2D simulator models a via with
lumped
> RLC elements. It presumes that the return current disappears from the
plane
> at the signal via and reappears on the other reference planes by some
> magic.
> This obviously does not happen on a real board. Most of the cases we just
> can not afford to have stitching vias at every signal via, so the lack-of
> them should be modeled. The 3D simulators simulate this.
>
> Disadvantages, 3D:
> -slow, it may take days to get a result for a difficoult net. (eg. a
signal
> on a DDR3 DIMM memory fly-by address bus)
> -because of the memory limitations of the available computers, we can not
> have very dense mesh in the 3d structure. can it be dense enough at all,
> for
> example with a server-PC with quad-Xeon + 24GB memory? If the
cross-section
> mesh is not dense enough, then the skin effect and impedance values may
not
> be modeled accurately.
> -we can only model 1-2 traces at a time, even that takes hours/days.
>
> It is another story that we can do 3D computation also on small localised
> board areas, then chain these models for simulation. For example only on a
> single via transitions to speed up our simulation. But then it can not be
> applied to every problem. for example if we dont have a stitching GND
> via-ring around every single signal via, then a the return current flows
> out
> of our model... If we design a test vehicle with one 10Gbps signal and SMA
> connctors then we can have stitching-via ring around, but route 32 of
these
> signals out from under a 40mm by 40mm BGA next to a memory bus !
>
> The timing is very tight on a DDR3-1066MHz bus or on a PCIe-kink, so every
> little detail problem on the board may cause the system to fail. They
> operate with almost zero margin when the board is well-designed. Can we
> predict these with any of the methods? (2D or 3D)
>
>
> regards,
> Istvan Nagy
>
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