[rodgersorganusers] Re: Analog

Noel,

     Greetings.  Allow me to clarify my position here,
and cease my input relative to this subject.  
     First, and I think I may speak for others on this
list, when I state that I perfer the sound of my 330
over that of digital instruments, neither is THAT an
attack directed towards the new technology.  It simply
means that I love the sound of my 330, and understand
what a good analog is capable of.  I have heard a
number of digitals (all Rodgers with the exception of
one Walker) that have impressed the pants off of me.
     I, for one, am a huge proponent of new
technology, and believe that the day is just around
the corner, when digital organs will be truely
spectacular instruments (here comes another
firestorm).
When that day comes, I'll gut the 330 and have it
converted (I love the 330 drawknob console). I'm
always looking for improvement, but it must be REAL
improvement.
     If you look at my web site, you'll see that I
hold several U.S. patents, all in the field of exotic
materials.  I wrote the initial applications for all
of those patents.  I file patents at the rate of 2 to
3 patents per month, so many are pending.  What does
this mean?  Simply that one can read patents and
technical literature until they are blue in the face,
and it doesn't mean a thing intil one actually
observes the invention reduced to practice.  Read my
patent 6,447,840 (there's a link on my site) and it
will not mean a thing to you or anyone else until you
actually see and feel the invention.  I can read
technical specs on organs and other audio equipment
all day long, but the truth is in the ears.
     By the way, I have enjoyed this discourse, and I
enjoy this list immensely.  Thanks for keeping this a
civilized list.  It must be no easy task.

Very best regards,

Bradley K. Starcevich
www.starcevich.org

--- noel jones <gedeckt@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> Charlie, and all,
> 
> Before you read this, this is not an
> attack...everybody on this list 
> needs to visit a Rodgers dealer at least once every
> two years.
> 
> Make an appointment, let them know you are not
> calling to buy an organ, 
> but you would like a tour through the technical
> aspects and musical 
> aspects of what Rodgers is doing...
> 
> Do a patent search to see what PDI is all about...
> 
> Ask for technical documents from your dealer.
> Nothing propietary, but 
> there are some great things that Rodgers has in
> print that can be helpful.
> 
> 
> Charlie Strack wrote:
> 
> >"Why are there those that prefer analog sound?"
> >
> >Here are my reasons:
> >
> >Sometimes I find digital organs lacking in a
> convincing ensemble--the =
> >stops just don't come together "right".=20\
> >
> >If it is a Hillsboro, Oregon Rodgers...it is not
> the organ, but a bad design/voicing/installation. 
> Pipe organs suffer the same fate.
> >
> >
> >Sometimes I hear digital sound that I can only
> describe as two-dimensional-=
> >-lacking a depth to the sound, that I don't find
> missing in analog =
> >sound.=20
> >
> Same as above.
> 
> >
> >Perhaps it is that there just are not that many
> pitch sources in a digital =
> >instrument. To duplicate an analog Rodgers, much
> less a big pipe organ, =
> >the digital would have to have as many individual
> clocks as analog organ, =
> >and you're right back to an organ with lots of
> expensive oscillators.
> >
> Charlie, the digital has many, many more pitch
> sources than an 
> analog....espcially because they are not consigned
> to sit there waiting 
> to be played as analog oscillators are.
> 
> We all need to remeber that real pipes are also
> oscillators. A "true 
> digital pipe organ" would not have 61 pipes per rank
> per keyboard. 
> Instead it woudl have enough pipes that would
> represent the scaling and 
> then have them automatically adjust their physical
> length to the pitch 
> required.
> 
> Wouldn't that be a sight!
> 
> > 
> >
> >My C-180 has, obviously, two tuning sources that
> are out of tune with =
> >respect to each other, I imagine to give some
> semblance of "ensemble". But =
> >they are too far out of tune for my ears with big
> registrations. It's =
> >delicious, though, with a lone gedackt.
> >
> The C-180 has no relation to the digital tunign
> involved in the 
> domestically produced Rodgers Organs. The C-180 and
> Global, Insignia and 
> Allegiant series organs serve to fill a need for
> organs that are 
> affordable to a portion of the market. Their tonal
> equipmetn is not 
> produced in the US Rodgers factory.
> 
> >
> >Even if the digital has a frequency table that
> doesn't have locked =
> >octaves, whatever it has is fixed, without random
> variation. The analogs =
> >have the random variations. There is NOTHING random
> in a digital organ.=20
> >
> Then why does the Rodgers have Random Tuning? There
> is a lottery goign 
> on every time you turn on a Rodgers with adjustment
> available to the 
> organist to determine exactly how much they prefer
> this random tuning to 
> affect the organ tuning THAT time it is turned on.
> 
> The pitch shift involed in winding is also
> adjustable...flexible winding 
> reuires complete freedom from LOCKED IN tuning, and
> no domestically 
> produced Rodgers that I install has locked octaves.
> 
> >
> >So, while I admire what is being done with digital,
> I also appreciate the =
> >sound of a fine analog organ. In some ways analog
> is less pipe-like than =
> >the digitals and in some ways more pipe-like. I can
> only describe the =
> >results from a good Rodgers analog as very musical.
> >
> >And, finally, with a digital organ you can only
> make voicing changes and =
> >adjustments as far as the digital designer allows.
> With analog, you can =
> >modify the circuits to go beyond the designer's
> intent & permission. If =
> >you don't like and never use, say, the 4 ft
> spitzfl=F6te you can't do =
> >anything about it on a digital instrument. The
> exception being, like with =
> >some Rodgers voices, you have a choice behind the
> main voice. On an analog =
> >organ, you can at least remove the offending stop,
> and likely substitute =
> >something else quite easily.
> >
> A Rodgers voicer can produce massive changes in
> stoips, as you are 
> discusssing without pulling out a soldering iron.
> 
> >
> >"The first organs to use sampled chimes were often
> criticized..and still =
> >are, for the chimes=20
> >sounding too much like someone actually striking a
> chime rod...whcih of=20
> >course is what chimes are."
> >
> >There is a difference between "chimes" and
> "carillon". And even between =
> >orchestral chimes & church chimes. I suspect most
> organists want the sound =
> >of church chimes.=20
> >
> A chime does not know whether it is struck by a
> device held by a human 
> hand or a solenoid,,,,the sound of a chuime is that
> of a struck object. 
> A Rodgers TrueChime? responds to the expression
> pedal iin its 
> stricking...it is not muffled by an expression pedal
> as a church chime 
> is...nor limited to 4 or 5 strike voltages as
> exposed Deagans and such 
> are....
> 
> >
> >Church chimes are not hit by someone, but by
> solenoids. Solenoids cannot, =
> >by their very nature, strike exactly the way a
> person would. Also, =
> >solenoids have virtually a fixed strike strength.
> (Yes, there is  some =
> >variation with voltage, but it is pretty minimal
> and nothing close to what =
> >a human can do.) Digital chimes should not be touch
> sensitive to duplicate =
> >church chimes. If they are touch sensivite, then
> they duplicate the =
> >orchestral instrument, not the church instrument.
> >
> >The difficulty of using an analog scheme to make a
> chimes sound is exactly =
> >as Noel describes: the chime overtones are not
> really on the harmonic =
> >series--they are off-tune. (This is true of many
> idiophones--struck solid =
> >objects.) Without a separate oscillator tune to
> each individual harmonic =
> >(read: expensive), an analog approach won't be very
> convincing.
> >
> >Digital samples work wonderfully for most
> percussions.
> >
> >Charlie
> >
> 
=== message truncated ===


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