Quoting Bill Stephenson <photographica@xxxxxxxxxxx>:
> Could you explain that, Edward? A "functioning market" would seem to
> be one where items are bought and sold - that market certainly exists
A functioning market depends upon many factors including a relatively
high signal/noise of trades, relatively stable price adjustments and ..
In the case of photo gear there is a large supply of unwanted gear
ranging from an assortment of relatively common cameras to wonderful but
large professional optical ("obsolete" by current digital printing market
standards) lab waiting to be collected by the garbage.
There is a marketplace but its dominated by high levels of noise, relatively
few buyers and high but controlled supply (limited more by the costs to sell
than by the pool of items).
What is an item worth? All over the map...
"Price" in the photographic market could often be just as well determined by
the toss of some dice. And a lot is being tossed out the door. A lot of once
great and highly regarded 1950s and 1960s amateur gear (Rollei, Minox, Robot,
Voigtlaender etc.) has been flooding the market as old men like little boys
and Puff the Magic Dragon don't live forever.. and a lot of the finest
professional lab gear being scraped as companies get cleaned out. Over the
past few years I've seen some of the best labs either close or covert over to
digital workflows.. I've seen some of the oldest photographic archives close
their doors--- in the era of Web presentation (in contrast to print) it seems
companies are less willing to pay for images and more commonly using "found
ones" in their webs.... etc. Its scrap and the dump yards charge money to
dispose of the once glorious machines.
Look at most of our darkrooms.. most all of us have a surplus of stuff that's
better than probably anything we ever considered getting just a few years
ago.. some of it crossing the border to insanity.. :-)
> for photographic gear. Having recently sold an item for $4500 (a
> consignment, not my item, alas), I dare say that there is money being
> spent on 15-20 year old equipment.
Yes there is money being spent. But its just no longer a functioning market.
Looking at the mass of photographic goods that are common we see what could
be called volatility. Imagine two identical cameras closing on eBay within
minutes and yet one get $200 USD while the other only $20. These events from
a data collection view are called outlying data points. If I strip away the
self-bidders and professional bidders--- which make up a large part of eBay
photographic trades--- and only examine the remaining data points one will
still find that these kinds of extreme outlying data are not as rare as one
could expect from a working market.
Higher priced ("rare" and "collectible") items seem to fair much better on
the market and there is indeed some trends. $4500 for a camera is indeed in
that domain. Both collectors (buyers) and sellers have a collective interest
NOT to see the prices drop. Worse still, we've seen in some of the hotter areas
a significant increase in fraud.
Lets distinguish between collectible and user cameras.
Some historical and rare photographic gear has been on a steady course of
appreciation but most of of eBay is filled with standard stuff. Look at some
of the classic cameras like the Voigtlaender Vitos, Minox A/B/C models,
Leica, Rolleicords and Rolleiflexes etc. They are quality cameras that were
made in large numbers, tended to be well kept and maintained and so significant
numbers are still around.. The more valuable among the classic cameras are
those that were not well made and thus less than usable as they sold less and
few have survived intact.
> If it's all "junk", then does that apply to the antiques market as
> well? Grandmother's Rookwood vase is "junk"? Then why are people
> paying thousands for Rookwood (and other) pottery pieces? Are they
> all lunatics?
They might indeed be lunatics but that about collecting. What's that
matchbox toy car worth...
>
> I think you totally misread the buy-sell situation. So long as "A"
> has an item that "B" and "C" both want, there's a viable market and
> the item is not junk - at least to "B" and "C".
But when not just A has an item but 1000s of others and the supply is so
large that the transaction costs to sell the item outstrip the potential
price...
Lets see.. I bought a few months ago a new Nova sink.. new but in a dirty
and shopworn box.. What did I pay? I think 5 EUROs.. That's not what I call
a functioning market.. (unfortunately it was the next larger model than I
wanted and so its still waiting for me to reorganize my darkroom and shift
around stuff).. 5 EUROs? Heck the drain stopper would cost me more at the
dept store cross the road from me....
>
> -Bill
>
> On May 25, 2007, at 11:15 AM, Edward C. Zimmermann wrote:
>
> >
> > You are assuming that there is a functioning market for
> > photographic gear.
> > There is none. Its all effectively "junk".
> >
>
>
=============================================================================================================
> To unsubscribe from this list, go to www.freelists.org and logon to your
> account (the same e-mail address and password you set-up when you
> subscribed,) and unsubscribe from there.
>
=============================================================================================================
To unsubscribe from this list, go to www.freelists.org and logon to your
account (the same e-mail address and password you set-up when you subscribed,)
and unsubscribe from there.