[pure-silver] Re: PMK

After having already sent my reply I came to think that we were talking the 
same thing in different ways.  Please except my apologies if I appeared rude.  

BTW, have you ever heard of a Rainbow Cocktail?  Liquors of progressively lower 
specific gravity and different colors are carefully poured into a glass.  Looks 
rather pretty but the taste doesn't match the look.  

Jerry

-----Original Message-----
From: pure-silver-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:pure-silver-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bogdan Karasek
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 12:42 PM
To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [pure-silver] Re: PMK


HI,

Please read what I said.  For the preparation of any solution, if you 
just dump the stuff in the water, it will just sit at the bottom. Dump 
D-76 into water and it will sit at the bottom. Once you mix it until it 
dissolves, then the power will stay in solution, add more water and it 
just gets more dilute.  Same with the ink. Mix it with the water and 
you will have dilute ink.  That does not make it heavier.

I think that we are talking about the same thing.  When I wash my film , 
I don't don't agitate the film, I just let fresh water run through the 
container.  Agitation helps helps dilute the fixer in the same way that 
  stirring you pot of ink and water will cause all the  water to turn 
blue (or whatever colour ink you are using) or  All the water is doing 
is diluting the fixer solution and flushing it out the less dilute 
solution until eventually all that is left is water. Fixer is not 
heavier.  It is perhaps the wrong term to use. If I add water, the 
original fixer solution will not sink to the bottom and separate from 
the added water.  Take oil and add as much water as you want and if the 
mixture stands still, the oil will always  land up at the bottom.  That 
will never happen with the ink.  I think that the correct term to use is 
"soluble"and not "Heavier".

To say I am wrong is a bit of an overstatement.

Regards,
Bogdan

Koch, Gerald wrote:

> You are wrong.
> 
> Just because a solution is miscible with water does not mean that it 
> will immediately disperse within the entire container.  Try this experiment.  
> Add a drop of ink to a glass of water that has sat for a few minutes in order 
> to become still.  You will see the ink slowly sink towards the bottom of the 
> glass.  Stirring the mixture will make the ink disperse faster.
> 
> I was not implying that the fixer would forever remain at the bottom 
> of the tank.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pure-silver-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:pure-silver-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bogdan Karasek
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 11:23 AM
> To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [pure-silver] Re: PMK
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Just want to correct a common mis-perception about fixer.  Fixer is a
> solution.  The liter fixer solution itself may be heavier than a liter 
> of distilled water but if you add water to the fixer solution and mix, 
> you are merely diluting the fixer solution. The fixer will not sink to 
> the bottom, it will only become more dilute,  and the more water you 
> add, the more dilute the solution becomes until eventually the chemicals 
> that comprise the fixer become so diluted as to be nonexistent.  Add 
> sugar to water and you get a sweet tasting solution; add more water, and 
> the sweet solution will not sink to the bottom, it will only be less 
> sweet and so on and so forth, until eventually it doesn't taste sweet 
> anymore, but the sugar will never sink to the bottom because it is not a 
> mixture.
> 
> Agitation has nothing to do with it.
> 
> What you are thinking of is a mixture of say, oil and water.  You 
> cannot
> make a solution with that because the oil will not never dissolve in 
> water. Mix them together and let them stand and you will see that they 
> soon separate, oil forming at the bottom and water at the top.  That is 
> not the case with fixer.  If it were true, there would be separation 
> which as you can observe, does not happen if you let the fixer stand still.
> 
> Hope this clarifies things.  Finally, my high school chemistry of 40
> years ago is useful.  :)
> 
> Regards,
> Bogdan
> 
> Koch, Gerald wrote:
> 
>>Fixer is heavier than water and will tend to sink unless the wash
>>water is kept moving.
>>
>>Jerry
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: pure-silver-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>[mailto:pure-silver-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim MacKenzie
>>Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 12:07 AM
>>To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: [pure-silver] Re: PMK
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 06:58:53PM -0400, Hagner, Andrew wrote:
>>
>>
>>>All my life I have been using the standard alkaline/acidic process. 
>>>Can you describe the steps?  How is the development arrested without 
>>>a
>>
>>
>>>stop bath or perhaps it is not needed.  What is used as a fixer, just 
>>>pure sodium thiosulphate?  Better yet, are there any references to 
>>>read that deal with the process?
>>
>>
>>My process is pretty simple, but based on the recommendations by
>>Gordon
>>Hutchings in The Book of Pyro.  (I don't claim to have the knowledge of 
>>chemistry that is definitely had by some on this list.)
>>
>>I develop normally.  I use a 60-second running water wash (at
>>developer
>>temperature, usually 20 degrees), a 3- to 6-minute fix in Photographer's
>>
>>Formulary TF-4 fixer (longer for T-grain emulsions and with less fresh 
>>fixer), and a 15-minute wash in developer-temperature water (gently 
>>running).  I empty out the tank a few times during the wash (maybe 4-5 
>>times), although I understand that fixer is less dense than water and 
>>floats out anyway.
>>
>>The wash exceeds the recommendations, but it makes me feel better.
>>
>>Jim
>>======================================================================
>>==
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>>
> 
> 

-- 
________________________________________________________________
   Bogdan Karasek
   Montréal, Québec            e-mail: bkarasek@xxxxxxxxxxxx
   Canada

                   "I photograph my reality" 
__________________________________________________________________


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