[pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra

Hi Mark,
I agree that an accurate % is impossible; rather what I meant to convey is that, for me, the really creative part of photography takes place in the darkroom. That's where I feel at home; 70%-80%-90%, take your pick. It will vary from image and negative. But this is where the magic takes place. I can spend the day or two, in the darkroom, working with one negative in the enlarger. There are all the technical aspects that are at my disposal and as I go along, I try and master more and more of them, but I don't try and master the technical aspects for the sake of the technical aspects. They are subservient to the creative process and the photographic art that I am trying to make. Technique is a tool but mastery of the tool does not guarantee that there will be art at the end of the day.
I quite agree that the technical aspect is the easy part, the art of photography is something completely different. A bit like writing; you can master the technical aspects and write very well but if you don't have anything to say, what's the point. Might as well read a technical manual on how to set up a computer system or do auto maintenance. I go to photo exhibits at the local galleries and student exhibits at the college; technically, some of the stuff is incredible but you look at the print and say to yourself, "So what". The technical prowness is there but nothing more. The "art" or "creative" part of the equation is missing.
I think that fundamentally we agree on what it is we are trying to do but each one of us does it in manner that suits our artistic temperament and also according to what it is that gets our creative juices flowing. 
Cheers,
Bogdan

Mark Blackwell wrote:


Thanks for the correction Bogden.  Yet I wonder.  Can we really put any kind of 
accurate percentage on how much of a good photo is a part of any portion of the 
process.  Maybe for a single image.  Maybe for a group of similar images, but 
in total I doubt it.  Unless one recognizes that the shutter should be pressed, 
none of the rest matters.  Even if we do, some basic technical skill needs to 
be there to get the negatives close.  Then we run into choices about framing, 
cropping, different developers and toners and dare I say it digital options?

After thinking about it, I don't think I could really put such percentages on 
any of my work.  Maybe some could and that's fair.  I do believe though that 
the technical side of photography is the easiest to master.  The art of 
photography is a different story.  Few if any ever master that.


--- On Thu, 10/23/08, Bogdan Karasek <bkarasek@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


From: Bogdan Karasek <bkarasek@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra
To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 12:21 AM
Hi Mark,

Just a correction, please.  I said that, that for me,  the
darkroom was 80% of the creative process, developing neg., printing and such. The neg is 20%, maybe 30% of the creative process with me. But that's the way it works for me. Quite frequently, in the end, there is very little resemblance between the original image on the neg and the final print. Even the same neg gives different prints. 

I also work with 8x10.  I find it is different than  the
120 format. If I take 5 images in a day, then I think I have done well. For me it is also a very meditative situation. The world ceases to exist and there is only what I see through the lens. 

And I do agree that the so called enlightenment can come at
different and unexpected times. I never throw out working copies of prints. The next day, a glance at the print from a different angle, upsidedown, and you are off and running 

In the end, it is important to go out and shoot.

May the light be with you,
Bogdan

Mark Blackwell wrote:


Well I would disagree with you a bit on the negative

being 80% of the creative process.  It isn't the score
of the music, just the paper on which that score is printed.
The paper is what saves the information.

The creativity comes from the heart and soul of the

conductor reading the score, and the talent, skill and heart
of the musicians on which he or she depends to follow the
conductors instructions. 
For me certain amounts of so called enlightenment

happen at very different times.  Most of the creativity
comes before I ever put the camera to the eye.  It actually
in deciding when the shutter needs to be pushed.  Most of
the rest is just techniques.   Sometimes a crop just becomes
natural after the negative is in the enlarger.  Sometimes
you just know what you want when you see it in the lens.

Even 8x10 cameras, if you are worried too much about

the cost of film, you have the wrong camera.  If the photo
is irreplaceable, then you work with what you know and take
no chances.  Now if I am using it for stock, it may not be
that big of a deal to retake so I can go cheap without too
much worry.  The savings are small but over a couple hundred
rolls it adds up.  Its easily $2 a roll cheaper than some
film I have used so a couple hundred rolls of film I have
saved enough to pay for the used 1V body.

Now your trip to the desert, don't go cheap.  I

also might find that I have few if any problems and
sometimes these films are hidden gems ignored because they
are cheap.  It also could be I find its like the paper of
the conductors score that has had a match put to it.  Still
it will be a good excuse to get out there and work.

--- On Wed, 10/22/08, Bogdan Karasek

<bkarasek@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:




From: Bogdan Karasek <bkarasek@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra
To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 10:53 PM
hello,

I have to agree that the negative is the all

important
element, it is the score from which you make the music (Ansel
Adams ?)
If you have a good negative, then you can play around with any 
kind of
paper or technique that you want. This is why the darkroom 
is so
important for me. 80% of the creativity gets done in there, for
me.
I still haven't printed my Death Valley negatives (done contacts), I want to be in a particular mood when I look at them again, 
when
it's the end of February, -25°C outside, I'm fed up with the 
cold and
snow, had enough of the winter fun, time to go and work on Death
Valley
kind of attitude. Gives them some space. That how I 
want to

print them.

And I think that the other point is also very
relevant.
If the neg turns out bad because the film is in someway 
defective,
well, you'll probably will never get the shot again. That wild 
burro
outside the Charcoal Kilns will never be there again. If 
you're
going to take photographs, then go with reliable film. I went to 
Death
Valley in 120 format with Tri-x 320, APX 25 and Fujichrome 100. 
 And
if I'm not sure of the shot, I retake it, or try with a 
different DOF,
lower to the ground, slight angle change. This way I have 
more to
work with in the darkroom. So I don't want to worry that I 
might
get a roll or roles that has pinholes in it. I'm not 
advocating
the "machine gun approach" to taking photos with high speed 
motor and
such. But I think that we all want to work with a good neg, not just 
in terms
of image and all that but we also want a good, reliable physical 
support
for that image. If the support is deficient or lacking in 
some way,
then it takes away from the image. Like having a great 
lens on
your camera and a filter that is smeared. What's the point of 
the
lens. 
Testing is a different story.   I bought several

100 ft
rolls of expired Tri-x at a flea market several years ago, 
froze it
and use that to test camera speeds. All I want is to know is 
that the
images are consistent from f-stop/speed to complementary 
f-stop/speed
and down the line. Also gives me an idea of the quality of the 
lens,
soft/sharp. So going the mail-order route is too expensive just 
for

testing film.

So for me, the quality of the negative is all
important.
The whole developing process of the neg is one of the most 
crucial
elements in the whole photographic process, so I think it is 
important to
reduce variables to a minimum (experimentation is another 
kettle
of whatever), so I know what I can expect in terms of results, 
and this
allows me, when in the field, to know that I can get this 
shot with
this or that film and act accordingly.
Anyway, film is cheap, unless you're into 
8x10 and

up,.

Just my thoughts on something that we use all the

time in

our photography.

Cheers,
Bogdan

Mark Blackwell wrote:


I agree that film "If the job is

important"

is the least of your worries.  At that point, I

wouldn't

think even a half second about using what I really

thought

would work best without a thought for cost.  IF

cost is an

issue in a pro job, you aren't charging enough.

IF you

are on a once in a lifetime trip, think how much

would it
take to make that trip twice to redo the prints. 
At that

point its penny wise and pound foolish.  Film is

probably

one of the smallest percentage of the cost

associated with

photography, but its not zero.  Actually for me its

the

paper for b&w printing that seems to cost me

more than

anything else.

IF the film works well maybe I will try the

paper.  For

me that would be a far bigger savings and it has

one other

important feature.  IF it has a problem, I still

have a

negative to redo the print.

--- On Wed, 10/22/08, eroustom@xxxxxxxxxxx

<eroustom@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

From: eroustom@xxxxxxxxxxx

<eroustom@xxxxxxxxxxx>

Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra
To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 4:32 PM
The film scans very well. It can curl like

a spring

through,

and I tape it face down to my flat bed

scanner

rather than

try to hold it in those flimsy plastic

frames. It

develops

well in Rodinal and D76 (I presoak this

film for 2

minutes).  I use an acid stop bath -

Ilfostop, or

Kodak's indicator stop bath. I make

sure I mix

all my

chems to the right dilution, I also make

sure

I'm within

2 degrees from the developer temp. I've

seen a

pinhole

or dust curl in some frames from Arista,

never the

whole

roll, never more than a spec here or there.

Too bad

for one

frame that would have been a great print (I

guess

I'll
scan it and photoshop it) 

My first ever roll of film (ever... since I

started

doing

it all myself) was HP5+ from a 100 foot

roll. Never

a

problem that wasn't something I could

tell was

operator

error. Even though bulk loading is just an

opportunity to

ruin a film before you even start shooting.

When

I've

used up all my other films, I'm going

back to

Ilford,

(or Kodak I suppose). The cheaper films

have their

place for

people like me who learn  empirically,  but

if I

needed to

depend on the outcome they'd get put

aside

without a
thought.
E.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Blackwell" <mblackwell1958@xxxxxxxxx> To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 3:53:05 
PM GMT

-05:00
US/Canada Eastern Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra 
Well with two different reports, it simply

can't be

ignored as a possibility, especially when

you

consider the

relatively small sample size.  Yet going

totally

water may

not be my solution.  Instead I am like many

people

in that

if one pill cures you, two must cure you

twice as
fast. 
The reverse can also be true.  If X is

causing a

problem,

get rid of it all.  Instead of totally

eliminating

the acid

stop bath, I think I am going to try

reducing the

strength

by about 50% and see what happens.  It

should help

stop the

development with a far reduced risk of
pinholes. 
I could use and will use a water stop bath,

and

frankly I

wonder just how much continued development

actually

occurs

in a solution that has very little
developer left. 
I also wonder just how far I would need to

dilute

the stop

so that it goes into a developing tank

good, and

when it

comes out the indicator says its spent and

just use

it once.

It probably would be far weaker than I
expect. 
I tend to belong to more of the TLAR school

of

photography.

For me its more intuitive and less
technical. 
What's

the TLAR school of photography???  It

stands for

"That
Looks About Right". 
Still for $2 a roll, if its even remotely

serviceable,

there is a place for it in my work.  Maybe

not a

large
place, but a place none the less. 
I am curious also to see how this film
scans. 
--- On Wed, 10/22/08, Tim Daneliuk
<tundra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
From: Tim Daneliuk
<tundra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU
Ultra
To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 1:56
PM
Mark Blackwell wrote: 
Janet how strong was your stop
bath??? 
I had a similar thought when I read

this. I

*never*
use an
active stop bath for film. Developers are alkaline, 
stop

baths are
acid
- that's why they stop the development. It is, 
however,
possible to
get pinholing when the emulsion moves from 
the

alkali to
acid
environments. 
I long ago switched to a running water
"stop
bath" for all film processing. Development does not stop 
instantly, but
that
just gets factored into the overall personal 
ASA/development
times
I've come up with per the usual zone system
calibration.
--- On Wed, 10/22/08, Janet Cull
<jcull@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
From: Janet Cull
<jcull@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
Subject: [pure-silver] Re:

Arista EDU
Ultra
To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Wednesday, October 22, 
2008,
12:34 PM 
Anyone ever use this
film?
What did
you like or
dislike? 
I tried it and ended up with

images I

would
have
liked to
print, but with tiny holes in the 
emulsion.  Not
good! 
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--
________________________________________________________________
Bogdan Karasek
Montréal, Québec bogdan(at)bogdanphoto.com Canada 
www.bogdanphoto.com

                   "I bear witness"
________________________________________________________________




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--
________________________________________________________________
 Bogdan Karasek
Montréal, Québec bogdan(at)bogdanphoto.com 
 Canada                               www.bogdanphoto.com

                    "I bear witness"
________________________________________________________________




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--
________________________________________________________________
 Bogdan Karasek
 Montréal, Québec                     bogdan(at)bogdanphoto.com
 Canada                               www.bogdanphoto.com

                    "I bear witness"
________________________________________________________________ 


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