[pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra

Thanks for the correction Bogden.  Yet I wonder.  Can we really put any kind of 
accurate percentage on how much of a good photo is a part of any portion of the 
process.  Maybe for a single image.  Maybe for a group of similar images, but 
in total I doubt it.  Unless one recognizes that the shutter should be pressed, 
none of the rest matters.  Even if we do, some basic technical skill needs to 
be there to get the negatives close.  Then we run into choices about framing, 
cropping, different developers and toners and dare I say it digital options?

After thinking about it, I don't think I could really put such percentages on 
any of my work.  Maybe some could and that's fair.  I do believe though that 
the technical side of photography is the easiest to master.  The art of 
photography is a different story.  Few if any ever master that.


--- On Thu, 10/23/08, Bogdan Karasek <bkarasek@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> From: Bogdan Karasek <bkarasek@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra
> To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 12:21 AM
> Hi Mark,
> 
> Just a correction, please.  I said that, that for me,  the
> darkroom was 
> 80% of the creative process, developing neg., printing and
> such.  The 
> neg is 20%, maybe 30% of the creative process with me. But
> that's the 
> way it works for me.   Quite frequently, in the end, there
> is very 
> little resemblance between the original image on the neg
> and the final 
> print.  Even the same neg gives different prints.
> 
> I also work with 8x10.  I find it is different than  the
> 120 format.   
> If I take 5 images in a day, then I think I have done well.
>  For me it 
> is also a very meditative situation.   The world ceases to
> exist and 
> there is only what I see through the lens.
> 
> And I do agree that the so called enlightenment can come at
> different 
> and unexpected times.  I never throw out working copies of
> prints.  The 
> next day, a glance at the print from a different angle,
> upsidedown, and 
> you are off and running
> 
> In the end, it is important to go out and shoot.
> 
> May the light be with you,
> Bogdan
> 
> Mark Blackwell wrote:
> 
> >Well I would disagree with you a bit on the negative
> being 80% of the creative process.  It isn't the score
> of the music, just the paper on which that score is printed.
>  The paper is what saves the information.
> >
> >The creativity comes from the heart and soul of the
> conductor reading the score, and the talent, skill and heart
> of the musicians on which he or she depends to follow the
> conductors instructions.  
> >
> >For me certain amounts of so called enlightenment
> happen at very different times.  Most of the creativity
> comes before I ever put the camera to the eye.  It actually
> in deciding when the shutter needs to be pushed.  Most of
> the rest is just techniques.   Sometimes a crop just becomes
> natural after the negative is in the enlarger.  Sometimes
> you just know what you want when you see it in the lens.
> >
> >Even 8x10 cameras, if you are worried too much about
> the cost of film, you have the wrong camera.  If the photo
> is irreplaceable, then you work with what you know and take
> no chances.  Now if I am using it for stock, it may not be
> that big of a deal to retake so I can go cheap without too
> much worry.  The savings are small but over a couple hundred
> rolls it adds up.  Its easily $2 a roll cheaper than some
> film I have used so a couple hundred rolls of film I have
> saved enough to pay for the used 1V body.
> >
> >Now your trip to the desert, don't go cheap.  I
> also might find that I have few if any problems and
> sometimes these films are hidden gems ignored because they
> are cheap.  It also could be I find its like the paper of
> the conductors score that has had a match put to it.  Still
> it will be a good excuse to get out there and work.
> >
> >
> >--- On Wed, 10/22/08, Bogdan Karasek
> <bkarasek@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>From: Bogdan Karasek <bkarasek@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra
> >>To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 10:53 PM
> >>hello,
> >>
> >>I have to agree that the negative is the all
> important
> >>element,  it is 
> >>the score from which you make the music (Ansel
> Adams ?)  
> >>If you have a 
> >>good negative, then you can play around with any
> kind of
> >>paper or 
> >>technique that you want.   This is why the darkroom
> is so
> >>important for 
> >>me.  80% of the creativity gets done in there, for
> me.    
> >>I still 
> >>haven't printed my Death Valley negatives (done
> >>contacts), I want to be 
> >>in a particular mood when I look at them again, 
> when
> >>it's the end of 
> >>February, -25°C outside, I'm fed up with the
> cold and
> >>snow, had enough 
> >>of the winter fun, time to go and work on Death
> Valley 
> >>kind of 
> >>attitude.    Gives them some space.  That how I
> want to
> >>print them.
> >>
> >>And I think that the other point is also very
> relevant.   
> >>If the neg 
> >>turns out bad because the film is in someway
> defective,
> >>well, you'll 
> >>probably will never get the shot again.  That wild
> burro
> >>outside the 
> >>Charcoal Kilns  will never be there again.  If
> you're
> >>going to take 
> >>photographs, then go with reliable film.  I went to
> Death
> >>Valley in 120 
> >>format with Tri-x 320,  APX 25 and Fujichrome 100. 
>   And
> >>if I'm not 
> >>sure of the shot, I retake it, or try with a
> different DOF,
> >>  lower to 
> >>the ground, slight angle change.   This way I have
> more to
> >>work with in 
> >>the darkroom.   So I don't want to worry that I
> might
> >>get a roll or 
> >>roles that has pinholes in it.    I'm not
> advocating
> >>the "machine gun 
> >>approach" to taking photos with high speed
> motor and
> >>such.   But I think 
> >>that we all want to work with a good neg, not just
> in terms
> >>of image and 
> >>all that but we also want a good, reliable physical
> support
> >>for that 
> >>image.  If the support is deficient or lacking in
> some way,
> >>then it 
> >>takes away from the image.  Like having a great
> lens on
> >>your camera and 
> >>a filter that is smeared.   What's the point of
> the
> >>lens. 
> >>
> >>Testing is a different story.   I bought several
> 100 ft
> >>rolls of 
> >>expired  Tri-x at a flea market several years ago,
> froze it
> >>and use that 
> >>to test camera speeds.   All I want is to know is
> that the
> >>images are 
> >>consistent from f-stop/speed to complementary
> f-stop/speed
> >>and down the 
> >>line.  Also gives me an idea of the quality of the
> lens,
> >>soft/sharp.   
> >>So going the mail-order route is too expensive just
> for
> >>testing film.
> >>
> >>So for me, the quality of the negative is all
> important.  
> >>The whole 
> >>developing process of the neg is one of the most
> crucial
> >>elements in the 
> >>whole photographic process, so I think it is
> important to
> >>reduce 
> >>variables to a minimum (experimentation is another
> kettle
> >>of whatever), 
> >>so I know what I can expect in terms of results,
> and this
> >>allows me, 
> >>when in the field,  to know that I can get this
> shot with
> >>this or that 
> >>film  and act accordingly.
> >>
> >>Anyway, film is cheap,  unless you're into 
> 8x10 and
> >>up,.
> >>
> >>Just my thoughts on something that we use all the
> time in
> >>our photography.
> >>
> >>Cheers,
> >>Bogdan
> >>
> >>Mark Blackwell wrote:
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>I agree that film "If the job is
> important"
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>is the least of your worries.  At that point, I
> wouldn't
> >>think even a half second about using what I really
> thought
> >>would work best without a thought for cost.  IF
> cost is an
> >>issue in a pro job, you aren't charging enough.
>  IF you
> >>are on a once in a lifetime trip, think how much
> would it
> >>take to make that trip twice to redo the prints. 
> At that
> >>point its penny wise and pound foolish.  Film is
> probably
> >>one of the smallest percentage of the cost
> associated with
> >>photography, but its not zero.  Actually for me its
> the
> >>paper for b&w printing that seems to cost me
> more than
> >>anything else.
> >>    
> >>
> >>>IF the film works well maybe I will try the
> paper.  For
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>me that would be a far bigger savings and it has
> one other
> >>important feature.  IF it has a problem, I still
> have a
> >>negative to redo the print.
> >>    
> >>
> >>>--- On Wed, 10/22/08, eroustom@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>      
> >>>
> >><eroustom@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>    
> >>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>From: eroustom@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >><eroustom@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra
> >>>>To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 4:32 PM
> >>>>The film scans very well. It can curl like
> a spring
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>through,
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>and I tape it face down to my flat bed
> scanner
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>rather than
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>try to hold it in those flimsy plastic
> frames. It
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>develops
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>well in Rodinal and D76 (I presoak this
> film for 2
> >>>>minutes).  I use an acid stop bath -
> Ilfostop, or
> >>>>Kodak's indicator stop bath. I make
> sure I mix
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>all my
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>chems to the right dilution, I also make
> sure
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>I'm within
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>2 degrees from the developer temp. I've
> seen a
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>pinhole
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>or dust curl in some frames from Arista,
> never the
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>whole
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>roll, never more than a spec here or there.
> Too bad
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>for one
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>frame that would have been a great print (I
> guess
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>I'll
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>scan it and photoshop it) 
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>My first ever roll of film (ever... since I
> started
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>doing
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>it all myself) was HP5+ from a 100 foot
> roll. Never
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>a
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>problem that wasn't something I could
> tell was
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>operator
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>error. Even though bulk loading is just an
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>opportunity to
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>ruin a film before you even start shooting.
> When
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>I've
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>used up all my other films, I'm going
> back to
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>Ilford,
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>(or Kodak I suppose). The cheaper films
> have their
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>place for
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>people like me who learn  empirically,  but
> if I
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>needed to
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>depend on the outcome they'd get put
> aside
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>without a
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>thought. 
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>E. 
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>----- Original Message ----- 
> >>>>From: "Mark Blackwell"
> >>>><mblackwell1958@xxxxxxxxx> 
> >>>>To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >>>>Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 3:53:05
> PM GMT
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>-05:00
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>US/Canada Eastern 
> >>>>Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra
> 
> >>>>
> >>>>Well with two different reports, it simply
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>can't be
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>ignored as a possibility, especially when
> you
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>consider the
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>relatively small sample size.  Yet going
> totally
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>water may
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>not be my solution.  Instead I am like many
> people
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>in that
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>if one pill cures you, two must cure you
> twice as
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>fast. 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>The reverse can also be true.  If X is
> causing a
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>problem,
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>get rid of it all.  Instead of totally
> eliminating
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>the acid
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>stop bath, I think I am going to try
> reducing the
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>strength
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>by about 50% and see what happens.  It
> should help
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>stop the
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>development with a far reduced risk of
> pinholes. 
> >>>>
> >>>>I could use and will use a water stop bath,
> and
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>frankly I
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>wonder just how much continued development
> actually
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>occurs
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>in a solution that has very little
> developer left. 
> >>>>
> >>>>I also wonder just how far I would need to
> dilute
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>the stop
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>so that it goes into a developing tank
> good, and
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>when it
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>comes out the indicator says its spent and
> just use
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>it once.
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>It probably would be far weaker than I
> expect. 
> >>>>
> >>>>I tend to belong to more of the TLAR school
> of
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>photography.
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>For me its more intuitive and less
> technical. 
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>What's
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>the TLAR school of photography???  It
> stands for
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>"That
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>Looks About Right". 
> >>>>
> >>>>Still for $2 a roll, if its even remotely
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>serviceable,
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>there is a place for it in my work.  Maybe
> not a
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>large
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>place, but a place none the less.   
> >>>>
> >>>>I am curious also to see how this film
> scans.     
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>--- On Wed, 10/22/08, Tim Daneliuk
> >>>><tundra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
> >>>>
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>From: Tim Daneliuk
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >><tundra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU
> Ultra 
> >>>>>To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >>>>>Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 1:56
> PM 
> >>>>>Mark Blackwell wrote: 
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Janet how strong was your stop
> bath??? 
> >>>>>>       
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>            
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>I had a similar thought when I read
> this. I
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>*never*
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>use an 
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>active stop 
> >>>>>bath for film. Developers are alkaline,
> stop
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>baths are
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>acid 
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>- that's 
> >>>>>why they stop the development. It is,
> however,
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>possible to 
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>get 
> >>>>>pinholing when the emulsion moves from
> the
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>alkali to
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>acid 
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>environments. 
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I long ago switched to a running water
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>"stop 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>bath" for all film 
> >>>>>processing. Development does not stop
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>instantly, but
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>that 
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>just gets 
> >>>>>factored into the overall personal
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>ASA/development
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>times 
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>I've come up 
> >>>>>with per the usual zone system
> calibration. 
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>--- On Wed, 10/22/08, Janet Cull 
> >>>>>>       
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>            
> >>>>>>
> >>>>><jcull@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>From: Janet Cull
> >>>>>>>              
> >>>>>>>
> >><jcull@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>>>Subject: [pure-silver] Re:
> Arista EDU
> >>>>>>>              
> >>>>>>>
> >>Ultra 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>>>To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >>>>>>>Date: Wednesday, October 22,
> 2008,
> >>>>>>>              
> >>>>>>>
> >>12:34 PM 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>>>         
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>              
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Anyone ever use this
> film?  
> >>>>>>>>>             
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>                  
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>What did 
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>you like or 
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>dislike? 
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I tried it and ended up with
> images I
> >>>>>>>              
> >>>>>>>
> >>would
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>>>         
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>              
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>have 
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>liked to 
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>print, but   
> >>>>>>>with tiny holes in the
> emulsion.  Not
> >>>>>>>              
> >>>>>>>
> >>good! 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>         
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>              
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>=====================================================================
> >>>>
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>======================================== 
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe from
> this list,
> >>>>>>>>>                  
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>go to 
> >>    
> >>
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> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>                  
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>www.freelists.org and logon   
> >>>>>>>         
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>              
> >>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>>>                  
> >>>>>>>>>
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> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>>>>>             
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>                  
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>address 
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>and 
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>password you set-up   
> >>>>>>>         
> >>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>when you subscribed,)
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> unsubscribe
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> >>>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>>
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> >>>>=============================================================================================================
> >>>>
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> subscribed,) and
> >>>>>>>         
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> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>>from there. 
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>     
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>       
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>            
> >>>>>>
> >>>>=============================================================================================================
> >>>>
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>>To unsubscribe from this list, go
> to
> >>>>>>       
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>address and
> >>    
> >>
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> >>>>>-- 
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> >>>>>     
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> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>Tim Daneliuk     tundra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >>>>>PGP Key:        
> http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>=============================================================================================================
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> >>>>>To unsubscribe from this list, go to
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
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> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>and 
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>logon to your account (the same e-mail
> address
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>and
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>password 
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>>>you set-up when you subscribed,) and
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>unsubscribe from
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>>     
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>there. 
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>      
> >>>>=============================================================================================================
> >>>>
> >>>>To unsubscribe from this list, go to
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>www.freelists.org and
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>logon to your account (the same e-mail
> address and
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>password
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>you set-up when you subscribed,) and
> unsubscribe
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>from there.
> >>    
> >>
> >>>>   
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>     
> >>>==========================================================================================================To
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>unsubscribe from this list, go to www.freelists.org
> and
> >>logon to your account (the same e-mail address and
> password
> >>you set-up when you subscribed,) and unsubscribe
> from there.
> >>    
> >>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>-- 
> >>________________________________________________________________
> >>  Bogdan Karasek
> >>  Montréal, Québec                    
> >>bogdan(at)bogdanphoto.com
> >>  Canada                              
> www.bogdanphoto.com
> >>
> >>                     "I bear witness"
> >>________________________________________________________________
> >> 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>=============================================================================================================
> >>To unsubscribe from this list, go to
> www.freelists.org and
> >>logon to your account (the same e-mail address and
> password
> >>you set-up when you subscribed,) and unsubscribe
> from there.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >      
> >==========================================================================================================To
> unsubscribe from this list, go to www.freelists.org and
> logon to your account (the same e-mail address and password
> you set-up when you subscribed,) and unsubscribe from there.
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> -- 
> ________________________________________________________________
>   Bogdan Karasek
>   Montréal, Québec                    
> bogdan(at)bogdanphoto.com
>   Canada                               www.bogdanphoto.com
> 
>                      "I bear witness"
> ________________________________________________________________
>  
> 
> 
> 
> =============================================================================================================
> To unsubscribe from this list, go to www.freelists.org and
> logon to your account (the same e-mail address and password
> you set-up when you subscribed,) and unsubscribe from there.


    
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