[pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra

Well I would disagree with you a bit on the negative being 80% of the creative 
process.  It isn't the score of the music, just the paper on which that score 
is printed.  The paper is what saves the information.

The creativity comes from the heart and soul of the conductor reading the 
score, and the talent, skill and heart of the musicians on which he or she 
depends to follow the conductors instructions.  

For me certain amounts of so called enlightenment happen at very different 
times.  Most of the creativity comes before I ever put the camera to the eye.  
It actually in deciding when the shutter needs to be pushed.  Most of the rest 
is just techniques.   Sometimes a crop just becomes natural after the negative 
is in the enlarger.  Sometimes you just know what you want when you see it in 
the lens.

Even 8x10 cameras, if you are worried too much about the cost of film, you have 
the wrong camera.  If the photo is irreplaceable, then you work with what you 
know and take no chances.  Now if I am using it for stock, it may not be that 
big of a deal to retake so I can go cheap without too much worry.  The savings 
are small but over a couple hundred rolls it adds up.  Its easily $2 a roll 
cheaper than some film I have used so a couple hundred rolls of film I have 
saved enough to pay for the used 1V body.

Now your trip to the desert, don't go cheap.  I also might find that I have few 
if any problems and sometimes these films are hidden gems ignored because they 
are cheap.  It also could be I find its like the paper of the conductors score 
that has had a match put to it.  Still it will be a good excuse to get out 
there and work.


--- On Wed, 10/22/08, Bogdan Karasek <bkarasek@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> From: Bogdan Karasek <bkarasek@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra
> To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 10:53 PM
> hello,
> 
> I have to agree that the negative is the all important
> element,  it is 
> the score from which you make the music (Ansel Adams ?)  
> If you have a 
> good negative, then you can play around with any kind of
> paper or 
> technique that you want.   This is why the darkroom is so
> important for 
> me.  80% of the creativity gets done in there, for me.    
> I still 
> haven't printed my Death Valley negatives (done
> contacts), I want to be 
> in a particular mood when I look at them again,  when
> it's the end of 
> February, -25°C outside, I'm fed up with the cold and
> snow, had enough 
> of the winter fun, time to go and work on Death Valley 
> kind of 
> attitude.    Gives them some space.  That how I want to
> print them.
> 
> And I think that the other point is also very relevant.   
> If the neg 
> turns out bad because the film is in someway defective,
> well, you'll 
> probably will never get the shot again.  That wild burro
> outside the 
> Charcoal Kilns  will never be there again.  If you're
> going to take 
> photographs, then go with reliable film.  I went to Death
> Valley in 120 
> format with Tri-x 320,  APX 25 and Fujichrome 100.    And
> if I'm not 
> sure of the shot, I retake it, or try with a different DOF,
>   lower to 
> the ground, slight angle change.   This way I have more to
> work with in 
> the darkroom.   So I don't want to worry that I might
> get a roll or 
> roles that has pinholes in it.    I'm not advocating
> the "machine gun 
> approach" to taking photos with high speed motor and
> such.   But I think 
> that we all want to work with a good neg, not just in terms
> of image and 
> all that but we also want a good, reliable physical support
> for that 
> image.  If the support is deficient or lacking in some way,
> then it 
> takes away from the image.  Like having a great lens on
> your camera and 
> a filter that is smeared.   What's the point of the
> lens. 
> 
> Testing is a different story.   I bought several 100 ft
> rolls of 
> expired  Tri-x at a flea market several years ago, froze it
> and use that 
> to test camera speeds.   All I want is to know is that the
> images are 
> consistent from f-stop/speed to complementary f-stop/speed
> and down the 
> line.  Also gives me an idea of the quality of the lens,
> soft/sharp.   
> So going the mail-order route is too expensive just for
> testing film.
> 
> So for me, the quality of the negative is all important.  
> The whole 
> developing process of the neg is one of the most crucial
> elements in the 
> whole photographic process, so I think it is important to
> reduce 
> variables to a minimum (experimentation is another kettle
> of whatever), 
> so I know what I can expect in terms of results, and this
> allows me, 
> when in the field,  to know that I can get this shot with
> this or that 
> film  and act accordingly.
> 
> Anyway, film is cheap,  unless you're into  8x10 and
> up,.
> 
> Just my thoughts on something that we use all the time in
> our photography.
> 
> Cheers,
> Bogdan
> 
> Mark Blackwell wrote:
> 
> >I agree that film "If the job is important"
> is the least of your worries.  At that point, I wouldn't
> think even a half second about using what I really thought
> would work best without a thought for cost.  IF cost is an
> issue in a pro job, you aren't charging enough.  IF you
> are on a once in a lifetime trip, think how much would it
> take to make that trip twice to redo the prints.  At that
> point its penny wise and pound foolish.  Film is probably
> one of the smallest percentage of the cost associated with
> photography, but its not zero.  Actually for me its the
> paper for b&w printing that seems to cost me more than
> anything else.
> >
> >IF the film works well maybe I will try the paper.  For
> me that would be a far bigger savings and it has one other
> important feature.  IF it has a problem, I still have a
> negative to redo the print.
> >
> >
> >--- On Wed, 10/22/08, eroustom@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <eroustom@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>From: eroustom@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <eroustom@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra
> >>To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 4:32 PM
> >>The film scans very well. It can curl like a spring
> through,
> >>and I tape it face down to my flat bed scanner
> rather than
> >>try to hold it in those flimsy plastic frames. It
> develops
> >>well in Rodinal and D76 (I presoak this film for 2
> >>minutes).  I use an acid stop bath - Ilfostop, or
> >>Kodak's indicator stop bath. I make sure I mix
> all my
> >>chems to the right dilution, I also make sure
> I'm within
> >>2 degrees from the developer temp. I've seen a
> pinhole
> >>or dust curl in some frames from Arista, never the
> whole
> >>roll, never more than a spec here or there. Too bad
> for one
> >>frame that would have been a great print (I guess
> I'll
> >>scan it and photoshop it) 
> >>
> >>
> >>My first ever roll of film (ever... since I started
> doing
> >>it all myself) was HP5+ from a 100 foot roll. Never
> a
> >>problem that wasn't something I could tell was
> operator
> >>error. Even though bulk loading is just an
> opportunity to
> >>ruin a film before you even start shooting. When
> I've
> >>used up all my other films, I'm going back to
> Ilford,
> >>(or Kodak I suppose). The cheaper films have their
> place for
> >>people like me who learn  empirically,  but if I
> needed to
> >>depend on the outcome they'd get put aside
> without a
> >>thought. 
> >>
> >>
> >>E. 
> >>
> >>
> >>----- Original Message ----- 
> >>From: "Mark Blackwell"
> >><mblackwell1958@xxxxxxxxx> 
> >>To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >>Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 3:53:05 PM GMT
> -05:00
> >>US/Canada Eastern 
> >>Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra 
> >>
> >>Well with two different reports, it simply
> can't be
> >>ignored as a possibility, especially when you
> consider the
> >>relatively small sample size.  Yet going totally
> water may
> >>not be my solution.  Instead I am like many people
> in that
> >>if one pill cures you, two must cure you twice as
> fast. 
> >>
> >>The reverse can also be true.  If X is causing a
> problem,
> >>get rid of it all.  Instead of totally eliminating
> the acid
> >>stop bath, I think I am going to try reducing the
> strength
> >>by about 50% and see what happens.  It should help
> stop the
> >>development with a far reduced risk of pinholes. 
> >>
> >>I could use and will use a water stop bath, and
> frankly I
> >>wonder just how much continued development actually
> occurs
> >>in a solution that has very little developer left. 
> >>
> >>I also wonder just how far I would need to dilute
> the stop
> >>so that it goes into a developing tank good, and
> when it
> >>comes out the indicator says its spent and just use
> it once.
> >> It probably would be far weaker than I expect. 
> >>
> >>I tend to belong to more of the TLAR school of
> photography.
> >> For me its more intuitive and less technical. 
> What's
> >>the TLAR school of photography???  It stands for
> "That
> >>Looks About Right". 
> >>
> >>Still for $2 a roll, if its even remotely
> serviceable,
> >>there is a place for it in my work.  Maybe not a
> large
> >>place, but a place none the less.   
> >>
> >>I am curious also to see how this film scans.     
> >>
> >>
> >>--- On Wed, 10/22/08, Tim Daneliuk
> >><tundra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>From: Tim Daneliuk
> <tundra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
> >>>Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU Ultra 
> >>>To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >>>Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 1:56 PM 
> >>>Mark Blackwell wrote: 
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>Janet how strong was your stop bath??? 
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>I had a similar thought when I read this. I
> *never*
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>use an 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>active stop 
> >>>bath for film. Developers are alkaline, stop
> baths are
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>acid 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>- that's 
> >>>why they stop the development. It is, however,
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>possible to 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>get 
> >>>pinholing when the emulsion moves from the
> alkali to
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>acid 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>environments. 
> >>>
> >>>I long ago switched to a running water
> "stop 
> >>>bath" for all film 
> >>>processing. Development does not stop
> instantly, but
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>that 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>just gets 
> >>>factored into the overall personal
> ASA/development
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>times 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>I've come up 
> >>>with per the usual zone system calibration. 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>--- On Wed, 10/22/08, Janet Cull 
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>><jcull@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>>From: Janet Cull
> <jcull@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
> >>>>>Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Arista EDU
> Ultra 
> >>>>>To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >>>>>Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008,
> 12:34 PM 
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> Anyone ever use this film?  
> >>>>>>>              
> >>>>>>>
> >> What did 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>you like or 
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>>dislike? 
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I tried it and ended up with images I
> would
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>have 
> >>    
> >>
> >>>liked to 
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>>print, but   
> >>>>>with tiny holes in the emulsion.  Not
> good! 
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          
> >>>>>
> >>=====================================================================
> >>
> >>    
> >>
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> >>    
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> >>>-- 
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>Tim Daneliuk     tundra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >>>PGP Key:         http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
> 
> >>>
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> -- 
> ________________________________________________________________
>   Bogdan Karasek
>   Montréal, Québec                    
> bogdan(at)bogdanphoto.com
>   Canada                               www.bogdanphoto.com
> 
>                      "I bear witness"
> ________________________________________________________________
>  
> 
> 
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