[pure-silver] Re: Ansco 221 Observations & Questions

Thanks Tim for putting exactly as I meant to!  

Yes, the term I would have used had I thought of it is
"sepia shadows" as an effect I want to avoid.  As you
point out, it's easy to have that happen w/warm tone
papers.

Fortunately in this case my washer has flat dividers. 
I have seen the reduction Richard mentioned when
testing some Bergger paper that was quite thick and
(guessing) it held onto the fixer more so and required
an even longer wash.

Eric
 
--- Tim Rudman <tim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Hi Eric
> Re your last comment below: A word of warning if you
> use a slot washer. Many
> have dimpled or otherwise textured partition
> surfaces to encourage water
> flow over the print and inhibit adherence of the
> print to the slot side. If
> you use these washers after your bleach you are
> likely to get the screen
> surface pattern appearing during development/toning,
> be it a sepia toner or
> lith redevelopment or etc.
> 
> Re your questions, they have been admirably answered
> as always by Richard.
> Remember that warmtone papers bleach much more
> easily and quickly than
> neutral or coldtone papers so you may want to alter
> your bleach
> concentration either way according to the effect you
> want. It isn't always
> appropriate to bleach all the way. If you do you
> will get sepia shadow tones
> as well as mid and light tones. Sepia shadows often
> look lighter and less
> dense than black ones. Bleaching only partially
> allows you to keep black
> shadow tones under the sepia mid and light tones and
> gives a different look
> with a more 'solid' appearance. Or you can bleach to
> a minimal degree and
> only tone the highlights to give a sunny warmth to
> an otherwise B&W print.
> 
> Although there is a lot to be said for incomplete
> bleaching, the toning
> stage should generally always be taken to
> completion. With sepia it will
> only tone that which has been bleached so its better
> to apply control at
> that stage otherwise you leave unredeveloped halides
> in the print and should
> fix to make stable, and this will cause loss of tone
> (which may be desired
> but usually isn't)
> 
> If you have fully sepia toned/redeveloped you don't
> need to fix, therefore
> you don't need to hypo clear either as you will have
> removed all hypo before
> bleaching (and this is important to do).
> You may want to hypo clear after selenium toning
> however as KRST and similar
> contain hypo. 
> 
> Why not try the thiourea odourless variety? There
> isn't much experimenting
> you need to do really. Its just like the smelly one
> but more user friendly
> and not likely to fog other materials. The only
> extra step is how much
> additive you want for the colour you have in mind.
> It's really easy.
> 
> Tim
> http://www.worldoflithprinting.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pure-silver-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:pure-silver-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Eric Nelson
> Sent: 09 June 2007 00:26
> To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Ansco 221 Observations &
> Questions
> 
> Thanks Don for all the helpful info.
> 
> I've got the formulas for all the sepias and had
> settled on Ansco 221 for
> repeatabilty in my lab here. 
> I've wanted to try the thiocarbamide formula but
> have't found time to
> experiment like I used to.
> 
> That's good to know about the bleach as my prints
> never "disappear" in that
> step but just get lighter.  
> 
> I tried a non-stinky version, pre-packaged, and I
> couldn't control the
> bleaching no matter what I did and was never able to
> recover the tones using
> Forte or Bergger warm tone paper.  Hence my
> motivation to mix my own here as
> that way I know what I've got.
> 
> Since I use a 16x20 "archival" washer that takes
> forever to change out the
> water, after toning I wash for 45 mins to an hour.
> 
> Eric
> 
> --- Don Feinberg <ducque@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> > Eric,
> > 
> > If you're going to go to the effort to use a
> ferricyanide bleach 
> > followed by redevelop, why don't you use
> thiocarbamide instead of 
> > sulfide? -- No odors!
> > Not only that, but by varying the relative
> proportions of the two 
> > parts of the redeveloper you can create a fairly
> wide range of tones, 
> > from almost yellow to quite purple-brown.
> > 
> > I tend to somewhat over-dilute my bleach solutions
> as you do.  
> > Ferricyanide bleach works pretty quickly, and you
> do have to 
> > "anticipate" it. If you yank the print from the
> bleach at the point 
> > you think you want, it's already too late.  By the
> time the water bath 
> > stops the ferricyanide action, much more of the
> image is bleached than 
> > you intended.  I like to dilute the ferricyanide
> down so I get my 
> > bleaching times in the
> > 1 to 2 minute range.  I
> > get much more control that way.
> > 
> > Between the bleach and the redevelop I don't use
> anything but water.  
> > I put the bleached prints into the print washer
> for 10 minutes or so.  
> > I don't use acetic acid, and I've never had any
> "fingerprint"
> > issues.  The only real
> > problems I've seen are that sometimes the
> bleaching has actually 
> > happened differently than what appears to the eye,
> and the redevelop 
> > doesn't occur the way you'd expect.  I cannot
> explain that effect.
> >  I've also had some
> > very occasional streaking, where a "streak" on the
> print appears 
> > because it somehow gets way overdeveloped in the
> redeveloper.
> > I cannot explain that
> > effect either.
> > 
> > I don't use hypo-clear after the redevelop.  I do
> use a two-bath wash; 
> > I put the print right from the redeveloper into a
> fresh tray of water 
> > for a couple of minutes, then transfer it to the
> print washer.
> > 
> > I'm working away from home for some months and I
> don't have my 
> > personal "formulary" notebooks available here, but
> I'm sure someone 
> > else on the list would have the formula.
> > 
> > Don Feinberg
> > ducque@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > 
> >  > I use the Ansco 221 formula for my sepia toned
> prints whether
> > > on warm or cold toned papers.
> > > One observation is that if your sulfide solution
> > doesn't
> > > smell, don't use it!  I took a chance with some
> > older
> > > Solution 2 and the re-development was minimal
> and
> > basically
> > > ruined that print.
> > > I find that Ilford Multigrade will lose very
> > little density
> > > from bleaching while warm toned papers will lose
> a
> > 
> > > substantial amount so much more overexposure is
> > needed for
> > > warm toned papers.
> > > 
> > > My 1st question regarding dilution of Solution
> 1.
> > > I dilute to 1:5 and typically will bleach for
> > around 7
> > > minutes or more.  I came up w/this dilution
> after
> > using it
> > > for years and having things bleach too much,
> > seeing other
> > > bleaching formulas at similar concentrations
> were
> > diluted,
> > > and also as a way to conserve chemistry.  
> > > Is this being penny wise and pound foolish?
> > > 
> > > 2nd question is re: the after treatment.  After
> > the toning
> > > bath I wash the prints for 5-15 minutes and then
> > just drag
> > > them through a 3% acetic acid bath.  In the past
> I
> > have
> > > gotten smears and or fingerprints showing up in
> > the dried
> > > prints and this has eliminated that issue.  
> > > 
> > > I have read conflicting recommendations for
> using
> > hypo clear
> > > after toning, and by conflicting I mean some
> > references
> > > mention it and others do not.
> > > Anyone want to put in their 2¢ on whether to
> hypo
> > clear after toning?
> > > Formula is below for reference.
> > > Thanks
> > > Eric
> > > 
> > > Ansco/Agfa 221 Sepia Toner
> > > Solution 1 (Bleach)
> > > Water (at 125F or 52C)                    750.0
> ml
> > > Potassium Ferricyanide                     50.0
> > grams
> > > Potassium Bromide                          10.0
> > grams
> > > Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated             20.0
> > grams
> > > Cold water to make                          1.0
> > liter
> > > 
> > > Solution 2 (Redeveloper)
> > > Sodium Sulfide, dessicated                 45.0
> > grams
> > > Water to make                             500.0
> ml
> >  
> > 
> >
>
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> 
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