[pure-silver] Re: Ansco 221 Observations & Questions

Eric Nelson,  Low and behold it is the 221 formula. Ye old mind must have
held in place the normal amount I used. I routinely make a gallon/4L of that
solution. I am getting complete bleaching in 1 to 1 1/2 minutes tops. 7
minutes seems like a long time to bleach it. If I didn't get a complete
bleach within 1:45, I'd convert that bleach to use with warm tone and Agfa
papers where it would be diluted to about 1:10 to 1:20. 

I have found that the longer the print stays in the bleach, the weaker the
color changed as well. So it is not just the freshness of the Sulfide
portion.

I used this typically with 130 developer diluted 1:3 with a 3 min process;
+/- usually +.    

Eric

Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
214-827-8301
http://ericneilsenphotography.com
 
Skype : ejprinter
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pure-silver-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:pure-silver-
> bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of EJ Neilsen
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 11:06 AM
> To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Ansco 221 Observations & Questions
> 
> Eric, I used to routinely sepia and selenium tone Ilford MG4. I
> don't recall
> the formula name right now, I got it out of the Darkroom
> cookbook, but it is
> REALLY strong bleach; maybe 4 to 5 times stronger than the
> formula that you
> listed. If I wanted good rich b[EJ Neilsen] lacks with very strong browns,
> I'd selenium
> tone first and for about 2 to 3 minutes wash after a hypo clear
> bath and
> then bleach and redevelop. Bleaching is complete in about a
> minute.
> 
> With warm tone or at the time Agfa 118 MG, I'd reduce both the
> selenium time
> and the dilution of the bleach.
> 
> I'll post the name when I get to the studio again.
> 
> A bath of sodium sulfite after bleaching can pop the high
> lights if one is
> trying to save some prints that are a bit too flat. Some
> experimentation is
> required to make it work.
> 
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 4101 Commerce Street
> Suite 9
> Dallas, TX 75226
> http://e.neilsen.home.att.net
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> Skype ejprinter
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pure-silver-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:pure-silver-
> > bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Eric Nelson
> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 9:58 AM
> > To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Ansco 221 Observations & Questions
> >
> > Thanks Tim for putting exactly as I meant to!
> >
> > Yes, the term I would have used had I thought of it is
> > "sepia shadows" as an effect I want to avoid.  As you
> > point out, it's easy to have that happen w/warm tone
> > papers.
> >
> > Fortunately in this case my washer has flat dividers.
> > I have seen the reduction Richard mentioned when
> > testing some Bergger paper that was quite thick and
> > (guessing) it held onto the fixer more so and required
> > an even longer wash.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > --- Tim Rudman <tim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Eric
> > > Re your last comment below: A word of warning if you
> > > use a slot washer. Many
> > > have dimpled or otherwise textured partition
> > > surfaces to encourage water
> > > flow over the print and inhibit adherence of the
> > > print to the slot side. If
> > > you use these washers after your bleach you are
> > > likely to get the screen
> > > surface pattern appearing during development/toning,
> > > be it a sepia toner or
> > > lith redevelopment or etc.
> > >
> > > Re your questions, they have been admirably answered
> > > as always by Richard.
> > > Remember that warmtone papers bleach much more
> > > easily and quickly than
> > > neutral or coldtone papers so you may want to alter
> > > your bleach
> > > concentration either way according to the effect you
> > > want. It isn't always
> > > appropriate to bleach all the way. If you do you
> > > will get sepia shadow tones
> > > as well as mid and light tones. Sepia shadows often
> > > look lighter and less
> > > dense than black ones. Bleaching only partially
> > > allows you to keep black
> > > shadow tones under the sepia mid and light tones and
> > > gives a different look
> > > with a more 'solid' appearance. Or you can bleach to
> > > a minimal degree and
> > > only tone the highlights to give a sunny warmth to
> > > an otherwise B&W print.
> > >
> > > Although there is a lot to be said for incomplete
> > > bleaching, the toning
> > > stage should generally always be taken to
> > > completion. With sepia it will
> > > only tone that which has been bleached so its better
> > > to apply control at
> > > that stage otherwise you leave unredeveloped halides
> > > in the print and should
> > > fix to make stable, and this will cause loss of tone
> > > (which may be desired
> > > but usually isn't)
> > >
> > > If you have fully sepia toned/redeveloped you don't
> > > need to fix, therefore
> > > you don't need to hypo clear either as you will have
> > > removed all hypo before
> > > bleaching (and this is important to do).
> > > You may want to hypo clear after selenium toning
> > > however as KRST and similar
> > > contain hypo.
> > >
> > > Why not try the thiourea odourless variety? There
> > > isn't much experimenting
> > > you need to do really. Its just like the smelly one
> > > but more user friendly
> > > and not likely to fog other materials. The only
> > > extra step is how much
> > > additive you want for the colour you have in mind.
> > > It's really easy.
> > >
> > > Tim
> > > http://www.worldoflithprinting.com
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pure-silver-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:pure-silver-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> > > Of Eric Nelson
> > > Sent: 09 June 2007 00:26
> > > To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Ansco 221 Observations &
> > > Questions
> > >
> > > Thanks Don for all the helpful info.
> > >
> > > I've got the formulas for all the sepias and had
> > > settled on Ansco 221 for
> > > repeatabilty in my lab here.
> > > I've wanted to try the thiocarbamide formula but
> > > have't found time to
> > > experiment like I used to.
> > >
> > > That's good to know about the bleach as my prints
> > > never "disappear" in that
> > > step but just get lighter.
> > >
> > > I tried a non-stinky version, pre-packaged, and I
> > > couldn't control the
> > > bleaching no matter what I did and was never able to
> > > recover the tones using
> > > Forte or Bergger warm tone paper.  Hence my
> > > motivation to mix my own here as
> > > that way I know what I've got.
> > >
> > > Since I use a 16x20 "archival" washer that takes
> > > forever to change out the
> > > water, after toning I wash for 45 mins to an hour.
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > > --- Don Feinberg <ducque@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Eric,
> > > >
> > > > If you're going to go to the effort to use a
> > > ferricyanide bleach
> > > > followed by redevelop, why don't you use
> > > thiocarbamide instead of
> > > > sulfide? -- No odors!
> > > > Not only that, but by varying the relative
> > > proportions of the two
> > > > parts of the redeveloper you can create a fairly
> > > wide range of tones,
> > > > from almost yellow to quite purple-brown.
> > > >
> > > > I tend to somewhat over-dilute my bleach solutions
> > > as you do.
> > > > Ferricyanide bleach works pretty quickly, and you
> > > do have to
> > > > "anticipate" it. If you yank the print from the
> > > bleach at the point
> > > > you think you want, it's already too late.  By the
> > > time the water bath
> > > > stops the ferricyanide action, much more of the
> > > image is bleached than
> > > > you intended.  I like to dilute the ferricyanide
> > > down so I get my
> > > > bleaching times in the
> > > > 1 to 2 minute range.  I
> > > > get much more control that way.
> > > >
> > > > Between the bleach and the redevelop I don't use
> > > anything but water.
> > > > I put the bleached prints into the print washer
> > > for 10 minutes or so.
> > > > I don't use acetic acid, and I've never had any
> > > "fingerprint"
> > > > issues.  The only real
> > > > problems I've seen are that sometimes the
> > > bleaching has actually
> > > > happened differently than what appears to the eye,
> > > and the redevelop
> > > > doesn't occur the way you'd expect.  I cannot
> > > explain that effect.
> > > >  I've also had some
> > > > very occasional streaking, where a "streak" on the
> > > print appears
> > > > because it somehow gets way overdeveloped in the
> > > redeveloper.
> > > > I cannot explain that
> > > > effect either.
> > > >
> > > > I don't use hypo-clear after the redevelop.  I do
> > > use a two-bath wash;
> > > > I put the print right from the redeveloper into a
> > > fresh tray of water
> > > > for a couple of minutes, then transfer it to the
> > > print washer.
> > > >
> > > > I'm working away from home for some months and I
> > > don't have my
> > > > personal "formulary" notebooks available here, but
> > > I'm sure someone
> > > > else on the list would have the formula.
> > > >
> > > > Don Feinberg
> > > > ducque@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > >  > I use the Ansco 221 formula for my sepia toned
> > > prints whether
> > > > > on warm or cold toned papers.
> > > > > One observation is that if your sulfide solution
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > smell, don't use it!  I took a chance with some
> > > > older
> > > > > Solution 2 and the re-development was minimal
> > > and
> > > > basically
> > > > > ruined that print.
> > > > > I find that Ilford Multigrade will lose very
> > > > little density
> > > > > from bleaching while warm toned papers will lose
> > > a
> > > >
> > > > > substantial amount so much more overexposure is
> > > > needed for
> > > > > warm toned papers.
> > > > >
> > > > > My 1st question regarding dilution of Solution
> > > 1.
> > > > > I dilute to 1:5 and typically will bleach for
> > > > around 7
> > > > > minutes or more.  I came up w/this dilution
> > > after
> > > > using it
> > > > > for years and having things bleach too much,
> > > > seeing other
> > > > > bleaching formulas at similar concentrations
> > > were
> > > > diluted,
> > > > > and also as a way to conserve chemistry.
> > > > > Is this being penny wise and pound foolish?
> > > > >
> > > > > 2nd question is re: the after treatment.  After
> > > > the toning
> > > > > bath I wash the prints for 5-15 minutes and then
> > > > just drag
> > > > > them through a 3% acetic acid bath.  In the past
> > > I
> > > > have
> > > > > gotten smears and or fingerprints showing up in
> > > > the dried
> > > > > prints and this has eliminated that issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have read conflicting recommendations for
> > > using
> > > > hypo clear
> > > > > after toning, and by conflicting I mean some
> > > > references
> > > > > mention it and others do not.
> > > > > Anyone want to put in their 2¢ on whether to
> > > hypo
> > > > clear after toning?
> > > > > Formula is below for reference.
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > > Eric
> > > > >
> > > > > Ansco/Agfa 221 Sepia Toner
> > > > > Solution 1 (Bleach)
> > > > > Water (at 125F or 52C)                    750.0
> > > ml
> > > > > Potassium Ferricyanide                     50.0
> > > > grams
> > > > > Potassium Bromide                          10.0
> > > > grams
> > > > > Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated             20.0
> > > > grams
> > > > > Cold water to make                          1.0
> > > > liter
> > > > >
> > > > > Solution 2 (Redeveloper)
> > > > > Sodium Sulfide, dessicated                 45.0
> > > > grams
> > > > > Water to make                             500.0
> > > ml
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
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