Hi Rein, Thanks. That is good news. I look forward to the specs so that I can incorporate in the Android version. I have taken a big bite in the Android development by incorporating most of the client/server functions in the jPskmail client but I think it is worth it at the end despite a longer initial debug time. Interesting stuff. Best regards, John On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Rein Couperus <rein@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Solid stuff John, > > I have already implemented an experimental mode choice table in the client, > and I will set up a procedure for the server. > > Now to make sure all this will be backward compatible... > > > Rein PA0R > > -- > http://pa0r.blogspirit.com > > ------------------------------ > *Von:* "John Douyere" <vk2eta@xxxxxxxxx> > *Gesendet:* Aug 15, 2011 2:29:30 AM > *An:* pskmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > *Betreff:* [pskmail] Re: Using MFSK modes > > > Hi Rein, > > I just came back from a four days trip, so I apologize for a late response. > > I haven't seen that problem but considering that MFSK is sensitive to > frequency mis-alignment it is quite logical that if there is mis-alignment > it would be the first mode to suffer. > > Since the mode table is arranged in a simultaneous speed and robustness > order AND each step up is done such that a threshold has to be reached to > upgrade we have to be mindful to have steps that are manageable. > > If the step is too large then we will have a lot of hunting whereby the > lower speed mode will be very robust but the communication will fail on the > next up because the robustness is not there for an upgrade. > > In my initial research on the modes which fitted that bill I found that the > correlation between signal quality in a given mode and the potential success > of the next mode up is not linear at all, and if you look at the Fldigi code > there are a few "adjustments" I did in the reported signal quality to try to > find a section of the curve where there was enough correlation. > > So if you want address the MFSK frequency sensitivity I would suggest one > of the following solutions: > > 1. Replace MFSK32 with PSK125 so that we have a manageable step (-3dB in > sensitivity for 1/2 speed). I would advise against going strait to THOR22 as > the gap is significant (about -8dB and 1/3 of the speed). And replace MFSK16 > with THOR11. THOR16 is a better mach in speed for MFSK16 but not in > sensitivity. > > OR > > 2. When using MFSK modes always send TXid in both directions when in a > connected session. RSID aligns the receiving Fldigi to the exact audio > frequency required. > > > But really all in all it depends on the situation and I really I think we > should have a user selectable set of modes to cater for the different > situations. > > This would address the situations where only a restricted list of modes can > be used but mode shifting adds value, e.g. Portable devices (like the > Android development), slower computers, wider modes. > > It would also address the situation where wider modes could be of value > like MFSK64 or new modes like THOR44 (easy to create at double the speed of > THOR22 but wider). The RSID codes could be borrowed from unusable modes for > ARQ like RTTY and CONTESTIA. It would be easy to have an alternate use of > these RSID codes when Fldigi is used under Pskmail. That would be a real > value to us in Region 3 for use on the low bands where MFSK64 is of more > value than PSK250R for example. > > In regards to passing this list to the server I have detailed possible > solutions in a previous email last week which I believe are fully backward > compatible and is not restrictive for the future, whatever new modes are > available or desired then. > > I believe the most flexible solution is to pass the list at connect time so > that the server can start using that list strait away even during the 3 > phase connect state. Each mode is mapped to a character and that mode table > string is sent where we sent the current start-up TX mode for the server. > > With one character per mode instead of one letter for a given start-up > mode, we would have an increase of length of the connect sequence of 6 > characters. > > If we believe that is an issue we can easily reduce the length by at least > 5 characters by for example removing the :1024 as at this point the port > number is not used. The net result would be an increase of 1 character for > the whole 7 modes table we use now. Not significant in my opinion. > > Also I would not expect that list to be much longer than the seven we have > now otherwise it becomes a bit silly (like having a 10 gears car would be). > > What will also be needed for that to work smoothly with various mode > combinations is a relative robustness index for each of the mapped modes so > that the threshold for the mode upgrade can be variable. That is pretty easy > to implement too. > > Regards, > > John (VK2ETA) > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 6:12 PM, Rein Couperus <rein@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> The mode table in pskmail contains PSK, MFSK and THOR modes. >> >> I have been able to monitor quite a number of qso's during the last few >> days, >> and it becomes clear there is a problem with MFSK. >> >> The effect is that when the mode is degraded from PSK250R to MFSK32, >> one of the stations (server or client) clearly does not decode the MSK32 >> signal, >> and after a few retries the mode falls through to THOR22. >> >> After the link gets better (pactor qso on top of the connect finished), >> the server tries to >> upgrade to MFSK32 again, but that does not succeed, so the server stays in >> THOR22. >> >> After seeing this also on my own connects, I did some tests, and it turns >> out that most of the time the slight frequency difference between server >> and client >> is probably the cause. The same happens with MFSK16 and THOR8... >> >> I am thinking about removing the MFSK modes from the table. That >> is a pity, because the MFSK modes are the most sensitive... but that >> does not bring any advantage if the smallest frequency difference defeats >> it. >> >> Question: >> * Did you also see this effect? >> * Would you be in favour of dropping the MFSK modes? >> >> 73, >> >> Rein PA0R >> >> -- >> http://pa0r.blogspirit.com >> > > >