Re: need a real programmer!

Sina, that is not true at all. Game programming (graphics/engine development) is my niche and my main programming focus. In fact, I am working on an "up-to-date (shader model 5.0)" 2.5D game engine at the moment as well as a game to showcase it. When you say "very few bother coding", you are way off. Game development involves quite a lot of coding, whether you use an engine or not.


That aside, game development isn't simply "drag this here and drop that there." You are sadly mistaken. Yes, you can use things like 3D Game Maker or Unity3D but there are a reason why the big sellers never do. Halo, Halo 2, Halo 3, Halo Wars, Halo: ODST, Halo Reach, and Halo 4 all use their own custom engine and Havok physics (yes, you are right about the physics part) and have made billions. Most Xbox and Xbox 360 titles use their own engine. Why? Because they want the most control and premade engines do not offer that (and definitely not these drag-and-drop engines).

Aside from that you need to understand the marketing aspect of using someone else's game engine. There are publishing royalties as well as licensing requirements to use some of the great engines. Unreal Engine, for example, runs upwards of $350,000 for a single license on top of royalty fees. For the limited feature UDK, you can expect to pay $2,500 per seat (i.e. per programmer) and then 25% on all revenue beyond $10,000. And to speak bluntly, all of the free 3D game engines are rather shitty and outdated. If you want a good engine, you'll be paying quite a bit of potential revenue for it.

Aside from the business aspect of game engines, you really need to understand the amount of work that goes into making a game, because I don't think you understand it. So let me structure it for you:

You have your artists: texture artists, model artists, concept artists, level and map artists/designers, etc. (this here is expensive) You have your musicians: sound effects planners and designers, music planners and designer, etc.
You have your English majors: story development, planning, dialogue, etc.
You have your programmers: asset programmers, engine programmers, physics programmers, audio programmers, effects (shader) programmers, etc.

This is why high-end games spend millions in production. It is not simply a "drag and drop" job.

For the independent developer like myself, you are stuck doing all of these tasks on your own, and it is a headache. Now, I have to ask -- have you ever even done game development?


On 8/3/2011 7:59 AM, Sina Bahram wrote:

Tyler, that's exactly what folks do, and they make even more money than that. Putting that cluelessness aside, I do see now that you said 1000/fps instead of 1000FPS, which is completely different, so sorry about the question, but the comment still stands.

Oh, and lots of those engines are actually not terribly expensive at all, and are completely free for students, by the way.

Take care,

Sina

*From:*programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Littlefield, Tyler
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 03, 2011 10:42 AM
*To:* programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* Re: need a real programmer!

You clearly didn't read my message. I said 1000 ms in a second, and 60 fps. not 1000 fps. Second, there are game engines, have you seen the price of unreal? I've also spoken to folks who use it, and they say it's rather messy. You won't code the physics by hand; you'll use a lib like bullet, but you'll still have to set it up to do what it needs. If game programming were "drag and drop game-maker style, throw in a script or two here or there and voila, everyone would have the next halo and Bunji wouldn't be making upwards of 250 million.
On 8/3/2011 7:30 AM, Sina Bahram wrote:

One question and one comment:

Why on earth 1,000 FPS? This is strictly based on hardware, but still. I'm not sure I know any game on the market that runs that high. Most games are perfectly glossy at 60fp/s, and technically 30 to 40 is all you really need for smooth operations.

The comment is, actually all of the stuff you mentioned is now handled by game engines themselves; for example, Unity3D, the unreal engine, etc. etc. thus, all the game designer has to really do is come up with the story and some of the objects in the scene. Drag and drop some of those objects, write some really high level code to stitch things together; for example, collision triggers for when your character collides with the gun or med pack, and then call it a day, after of course all the media such as sound and images are done.

Very few folks in the industry bother coding the physics, and by very few, I really do think you could count them on your hands. The reason is that the physics just don't change. They get better, sure, but it's not like you're going to need different physics, just different values, and those values are flexible and changeable within the engine.

Take care,

Sina

*From:* programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Littlefield, Tyler
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 03, 2011 10:11 AM
*To:* programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* Re: need a real programmer!

It's not to bad to think up a design, Jim. What gets dificult is when you get to implement the game. If you're doing real-time 2d or 3d, you've got a lot to think about. First, it's realtime, so you'll have to set up the fps so that you'll have a way to manage the distance and you can use that with physics. If you have graphics, you'll have thousands of vertacies to manage per object for things like colision detection and rendering the graphic. You've also got to insure that your game can fit in all it's rendering and update operations in: (1000/FPS), where 1000 is the number of milliseconds in a second, and FPS is the frames-per-second, usually around 60, which leaves you about 16 ms to do everything in. Thinking up all sorts of ideas isn't all that difficult. It's the implementation process and getting those ideas into real working usable code that is fun.
On 8/3/2011 6:58 AM, Homme, James wrote:

Hay Elf,

How do you hold all that game planning stuff in your head.

Jim

*From:* programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Littlefield, Tyler
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 03, 2011 9:46 AM
*To:* programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* Re: need a real programmer!

It does not require flash to pull off something of quality. There are a few games written in c#, they can use directx. c++ is still my prefered choice, and the language I"m creating my current game in.
On 8/3/2011 2:07 AM, RicksPlace wrote:

Hi Inthane: I'm not sure if I am the Rick you mentioned but I remember your original post a little.

I am a VB.net / Sql CE or Sql Server guy for the most part. I am experienced in Business Apps. Now, Game production is quite diferent.

I don't know how well suited CSharp or any of the MS languages are for the purpose of game creation. I am thinking of the 2 main technicals of a game that is logic flow and the UI element processing.

When it comes to the logic flow that might be doable easily enough but I'm not at all sure about handling audio / video technicals. I would guess it would require Flash or Silverlight to pull off something of real quality for sighted people and I'm not sure about what else could be used in their place for quality Audio control.

I would think that those 2 technicals would be the foundation of at least the UI components of a game like you describe.

I haven't worked in Flash and I am still in VB.net 2008 since WindowEyes won't work well with UIA and not at all with WPF which is what Silverlight is all about.

My guess you were talking to the other Rick I have seen on list from time to time but if it was me, and I will help you with your app if I can, I don't have the tools to develop a really killer game like I would imagine you would want to do to compete with other companies out there.

    Also, if you are going to go cross-platform you should keep that
    in mind from the very start of the project and select tools and
    skill sets accordingly.

    Finally, if you are going to develop action games with any quality
    visuals you will, of course, need a sighted person, best a
    Programmer type, to design, test and coordinate visuals with logic
    flow, timing and audio and all that jazz.

    How you might use the graphics and perhaps the digitized images of
    real characters wwould be beyond what I have done and I wouldn't
    know how to learn to do that without having some vision.

    So, if me, I'll have to back out since I don't have the skill set
    necessary for the UI portion of the gaming arena and might not be
    up to speed with the logic flow which might be some form of AI in
    advanced senarios.

    Now, if you need a program to track your income, handle some
    accounting or any inventory control  from those apps, well I could
    do that.

    Keep posting up about your progress though since it would be
    pretty cool to be able to use those types of advanced tools to
    create interactive Science Fiction.

    Later Inthane:

    Rick USA

    ----- Original Message -----

    *From:* inthane <mailto:inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

    *To:* programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

    *Sent:* Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:54 PM

    *Subject:* Re: need a real programmer!

    hello again folks,

    there is a lot of things going on in my life so at times my responses
    are going to be a bit slow to show up!

    ok, I've had responses on my original query from Roger, Q, Ramit,
    Mesut,
    and a helpful hand offered from      rick

    first, Q, as I said in a personal reply to you for most of my
    needs, I
    need a partner, I don't have the capital to afford to have you build
    them and need to then sell them. though I may ask you about a private
    program I need  in a few days(since its a personal application,
    its not
    going to make money so I'm going to probably have to pay someone to
    build it)

    roger and rick, I have one application that's more of a database
    application that needs to be able to swiftly bring up a selected
    number
    of information entries , and make run functions on said data and
    display
    the results back to me quickly simply and rapidly . I'll contact you
    about it off list OK?

    now for everyone else (that would be Ramit, Mesut, and roger if he is
    still interested in game programming)
    you guys  asked some questions so here are my answers to the best
    of my
    ability:

    Question 1. for which platform do you envisage to have these games?:
    answer: what I am aiming for, are (at first) windows based screen
    reader
    friendly games that are playable by both sighted and VI folks,
    that will
    go to levels that such games have been, and beyond!

    language is fairly open though I would like to keep it out of the
    esoterics or the les flexible languages like lisp and/or working in
    flash

    c++, C#, those would be my preferences myself, but not a requirement

    these games run the gambit from fairly simple shooter games (I
    have one
    fashioned after an old arcade game that I believe folks would have a
    blast with, I know of many a worn out arcade machine that ran it) all
    the way up to puzzle games, semi role playing games like shades of
    doom
    and lone wolf, and beyond these into full on RPG and multi player
    game
    scenarios

    I used to work for a game company, games for the blind, but the
    owner,
    I'll just say he had some issues that caused the company to close up
    titer than a goblins backside, and then it disappeared from the web
    totally after a minor try at a come back.

    I was already long gone when that happened, but I have game
    designs in
    my head, that I was going to suggest to that former boss, along with
    experience in game writing (in the pencil and paper role playing game
    genre's  that can produce some fun, exciting and complex games.

    I also was known for, if not finding "the way" to do things,
    leading the
    programmers to look at things so they could figure out how to do
    them,
    as well as a knack for spotting and adding the "nice details" that
    were
    missing from the games produced.

    question 2. What would be the potential of earnings can you
    foresee from
    these games?:
    answer: hmmm, GMA games is still running so they must be making
    enough,
    they have in fact added a game to there line that sounds very
    similar to
    one of my concepts blast it! but anyway, I also remember my old
    boss/partner saying that he had just received a check for 10,000
    dollars
    from the company he used for his online site's game purchasing
    payment,
    a smaller company that was in competition with PayPal in it's early
    days.

    so I see good potential for a profitable partnership here.

    question 3. Can you provide more info regarding games you have in
    mind?
    as stated above, I have things from one or two person arcade style
    games, to multi player games (one computer or many) all the way up to
    multi person RPG games similar to doom, Diablo, and masters of Orion

    I work just as well in science fiction, and fantasy, along with cross
    Genre creations of current times/science fiction, current
    time/fantasy,
    some with war games, so on and so forth.

    now my #4. what I am looking for is/are a partner or partners who
    want
    to work together with me to create some fun games and see if we
    can earn
    ourselves some elevated living capital! but without hanging ourselves
    out to dry with our current existence!
    I would be willing to go into a simple 50/50 agreement for the first
    simple game, and then we... would invest the income from that back
    into
    the enterprise to make it legal, safe for us (I'm thinking an LLD
    here)
    and then formalize the company for fun and profit.

    so, now that you have details, what do you folks think?
    inthaneelf
    inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

--
Take care,
Ty
my website:
http://tds-solutions.net my blog: http://tds-solutions.net/blog skype: st8amnd127
My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!


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--
Take care,
Ty
my website:
http://tds-solutions.net my blog: http://tds-solutions.net/blog skype: st8amnd127
My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!




--
Take care,
Ty
my website:
http://tds-solutions.net
my blog:
http://tds-solutions.net/blog
skype: st8amnd127
My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!

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