Re: linux screen readers

Octavian,

"This is the most stupidest approach I've ever heard. You don't know what the hell you're talking about. You're coding suggestions are sloppy and don't even work. Why not just do things the way you're told and stop arguing. I'm telling you this because I happen to know lots more on this subject of human interaction than you do. I would never buy anything you would ever sell. I would never hire you for anything. Now just fix what I tell you to fix because I know it will work my way."

...Octavian, now that I've probably made you angry, ask yourself, would you ever want to interact with me on any level? Do you think this combative, insulting manner of interaction is conducive to any end results?

In case its not clear, I was only using my farcical introductory paragraph to illustrate that combative, insulting methods of interacting are not a good solution to anything. What Jim posted was not meant to be used as a method of manipulating people, he offered a good way of people working together to reach a positive outcome for both parties.

Again, this post was only meant to illustrate how bashing someone's work is not good for anyone. It was simply a joke.

On the other hand, I guess I will agree that criticizing another's work has its benefits if you've got nothing to lose, but this also illustrates my previous notion of the right tool for the right job.

Matthew
---- Original Message ----- From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 5:50 AM
Subject: Re: linux screen readers


What you describe is manipulation and I don't like it.

When somebody does something like that, I know that he does it not because that person really cares about what I do, but because he tries to manipulate me and make me think that he cares about me, while in fact he only cares about him and his needs.

If somebody doesn't do that and tells me that he doesn't like what I did, I know that he has its own interests, but at least I can consider that person some more sincere.

Octavian

----- Original Message ----- From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: linux screen readers


Hi,
Then the first thing you do is thank them for the effort they are putting
in. Then offer to help. You may be able to help in a way that you do not
know about. Then, after you thank them and offer to help, you politely
mention that you feel that something should be improved. Explain how it can be improved. Also explain how the improvement will help you use the product
better and give examples of how you will use the improvement. This helps
the person understand that you are not just wining about it. Also explain
the steps you took to uncover the problem clearly. Just doing that both
makes the person feel good about helping you and helps them solve the
problems you are having.

It is human nature to respond positively when someone acts positively
toward you . It is also human nature to respond negatively to someone who
is acting negatively toward you. Even when you don't like something, say
something positive first. That always helps the person want to help you.

Thanks.

Jim

James D Homme,
Usability Engineering
Highmark Inc.
james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
412-544-1810

"It's more important for me to start to do the right thing than it is to
wait until I think I
can do it just right."




            "Octavian
            Rasnita"
            <orasnita@xxxxxxx                                          To
            om>                       programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
            Sent by:                                                   cc
            programmingblind-
            bounce@freelists.                                     Subject
            org                       Re: linux screen readers


            09/14/2007 08:15
            AM


            Please respond to
            programmingblind@
              freelists.org






But what if we can't help, but we still don't like what other guys do?
We don't have anything to lose if we say something bad about their work,
because it is not helpful for us anyway.
But if we say something, maybe they find that there are some persons that
don't like their work, and they might want to improve the programs.

Octavian

----- Original Message -----
From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: linux screen readers


Hi,
I agree with Matthew for what it's worth. If we offer to help fix the
issues and come through with some help, they will be more likely to want to
help us.

Thanks.

Jim

James D Homme,
Usability Engineering
Highmark Inc.
james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
412-544-1810

"It's more important for me to start to do the right thing than it is to
wait until I think I
can do it just right."




            "Matthew2007"
            <matthew2007@char
            ter.net>                                                   To
            Sent by:                  programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
            programmingblind-                                          cc
            bounce@freelists.
            org                                                   Subject
                                      Re: linux screen readers

            09/14/2007 02:38
            AM


            Please respond to
            programmingblind@
              freelists.org






No, No, No, this is absolutely not the approach to take. This silly
approach
will absolutely not work to our benefit. This is completely convoluted and
very stupid logic to want to start "beating" people once they don't do what

you want. Remember, we need something from them, and they need nothing from

us, so it behooves us to kindly, very kindly request an ear for a few
minutes in order to explain our plight. You must exhaust all resources
before getting aggressive. What if after a kind request the other party
agrees and begins to help? then all is well and we benefit immensely. On
the
other hand, what if you start doing stupid things such as getting very
aggressive and threatening at the offset then demand help? The other party
will not only not want to help you, but they will have a very incorrect
view
of you and who you represent. Yes, the squeaky gear might get the oil, but
we're not talking mechanics here, we're talking human interactions.

Gees,

Matthew
---- Original Message -----
From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: linux screen readers


then it sounds like its time for those who are interested to go beat the
orca developers vigorously about the head and shoulders with there canes
until they give the needed information, eh?

smile, I have found quite often that the old saying "the squeaky gear
gets
the oil" is very true

I'll even join in some, since I will undoubtedly need some of this
knowledge somewhere along the line, though the need hasn't come up yet.

take care,
inthane
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: linux screen readers


From what I have seen there're no lists for orca scripting, nor
documentation available for it. I do think we should have this list,
as we should perhaps have a nvda scripting list, sinse this reader is
going really fast in its developement.
I guess, however, I can not help writting tutorials about how to
script orca, because I even haven't found an explanation about how is
the window structure in gnome apps (e.e if there are handles, control
ids and the like). This is what I miss, it wouldn't make seense to try
to make an app accessible without knowing first what we have in hands
to do that.
Marlon

2007/9/12, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>:
I definately have the impression that Orca and GUI access on Linux have
made major strides in progress this past year, so would encourage
anyone
interested to check out this platform.  Sun, IBM, and Google, among
others, are committed to Linux and have shown genuine interest in
accessibility.  I think they would welcome feedback from blind people
doing GUI application development in that area.

Does anyone here happen to know if there is a scripting list for Orca,
and
if so, how to subscribe?

Jamal

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