Re: iPhone development
- From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 14:39:25 -0400
Thanks Ken!
On Oct 11, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
> Well I just did a quick glance over the gtk+ c programming howtos and think
> without doing too much work I should be able to get one of those working
> although if I am correct it almost looks like there is no listbox so I guess
> it will have to be a combobox.. Oh well We will see.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM
> To: programmingblind
> Subject: Re: iPhone development
>
> I agree, and have been hoping for Gnome and OS X samples for a while.
> As mentioned in the direct email between us, I think there are samples
> written in cross platform languages and GUI toolkits that probably could
> be ported without much difficulty by someone familiar with those other
> platforms. For example, the wxPython sample at
> http://EmpowermentZone.com/py_fruit.zip
>
> would probably run under Vinux if an appropriate "sha-bang line" were
> inserted at the top of the .py file. If wxPython is not bundled with
> Vinux, then it would be helpful if the documentation for that fruit
> basket sample explain how to install it. All the fruit basket samples
> have free licenses, so anyone can use them as the basis for a port
> without seeking permission first.
>
> Jamal
>
>
> On 10/11/2010 3:56 PM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>> I do still think that an OSX and iOS FB example or two would be really
> helpful.
>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
>>
>>> It sounds to me like whoever that person is, he or she has not been truly
> serious about contributing a fruit basket program. On the present web site
> of the project
>>> http://FruitBasket.QuantumMyst.com
>>>
>>> the purpose of the project is explained and there is a link to the
> specific criteria for a fruit basket program. For even easier reference, I
> am pasting the text of that file below.
>>>
>>> While the current organization of the page may not be optimal, it is not
> difficult to follow. There are clearly program samples that do not use the
> unified code approach, and as mentioned, the criteria (pasted below) makes
> no mention of code structure.
>>>
>>> Jamal
>>>
>>> [F[From the link entitled "Fruit Basket Demo criteria,
>>> "]
>>>
>>> hello friends,
>>>
>>> On the Blind Programming list (www.blindprogramming.com), we developed
> specifications for a sample program with a graphical user interface (GUI)
> that could be implemented in various languages. It became known as a fruit
> basket program. The purpose is to help teach people how to code a GUI
> program in a particular language. Someone considering the language can
> examine the code and evaluate the syntax and other development steps
> involved based on his or her own knowledge, skills, and preferences. By
> running the program, one can also make observations as an end-user,
> evaluating such aspects as the size, speed, and accessibility of the
> program.
>>>
>>> The specifications for a fruit basket program are as follows:
>>> 1. The program is a GUI interface, or the equivalent with at least an
> edit box, list box, and two buttons.
>>> 2. The user can type the name of a fruit, e.g., apple, in the edit box.
>>> 3. When the Add button is activated, the fruit is copied into the list
> box and the edit box is cleared to be ready for another entry.
>>> 4. When the Delete button is activated, the currently focused fruit in
> the list box, or basket, is removed.
>>> 5. For accessibility, static labels should be associated with the edit
> box and list box, since these controls do not have captions like buttons.
>>> 6. Keyboard users will also appreciate a unique hot key for each control.
>>> 7. Making Add the default button allows a fruit to be added by simply
> pressing Enter after typing its name.
>>> 8. An error message alerts the user if Add is pressed without a fruit in
> the edit box or Delete is pressed without a fruit in the list box.
>>>
>>> ** Important** please! annotate your program files, make text copies if
> there not readable as such in there native format, add notes on easy to find
> and use applications for compiling the project if you can and include the
> text files, project files, and an compiled executable for your version of
> the Fruit Basket Demo Project, in a zipped file for uploading to the site.
>>>
>>> thank you, Inthaneelf, Jamal Mazrui, James Homme, Eunice Clicker, and
> everyone else who have contributed to the fruit basket demo project.
>>>
>>> On 10/11/2010 10:21 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>>>> Jamal et al,
>>>>
>>>> I did not say that the single source file approach to some of the Fruit
> Basket programs is essential to their value, I'm just a little frustrated
> trying to find someone to port the baskets to a GNU/Linux, Gnome based
> system. We have a call for volunteers out in all of our international
> locales and in the US asking for help in this porting but we've no takers
> and the one person we did have was stopped by her professor because he found
> the code to be oddly organized.
>>>>
>>>> If someone can write up a few paragraphs describing in general terms
> what FB is and why it is important, I'll get it up onto the FSF web site as
> soon as I can. If you don't look at www.fsf.org much, you won't, therefore,
> be able to see how rapidly we are improving it and an accessibility section
> is under way but, except for our original statement, still not there but
> will be soon. Anyone who wants to write articles about FLOSS at on GNU/Linux
> platforms (it's ok if they also run on Windows or Mac but they must also
> work as well on free operating systems) should write to me off-line to
> discuss topics of interest and how best to present them.
>>>>
>>>> If anyone out there wants to help port FB to a Gnome desktop, I can send
> them a pretty good computer that they can keep as their own once they
> complete some subsection of FB in Gnome desktop.
>>>>
>>>> Currently, from Gnome Foundation, Linux Foundation, FSF and elsewhere,
> the absolute highest priority is that we work with Gnome 3 as soon as it
> ships. This requires that we make a major change to DBus which means that
> it's really "under-the-hood" system hacking and lots of regression testing
> to make sure that Orca and other AT for Gnome weren't broken by one of these
> new changes.
>>>>
>>>> Again, any help would be greatly appreciated. Getting a free computer in
> the bargain should also alleviate fears of damaging one's main machine by
> polluting it with a GNU/Linux distro.
>>>>
>>>> Lastly, I will pay for shipping out of pocket for the computer in the US
> but I need to ask that anyone outside the country pay for shipping and
> whatever customs charges come with taking receipt of a desktop computer.
>>>>
>>>> HH,
>>>> cdh
>>>>
>>>> PS: The computer cannot be shipped until 10/25 or so as it is in my
> house in Florida and no one will be there until the twenty-fifth of this
> month.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:27 AM, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There is absolutely nothing in the criteria for a fruit basket program
> that says UI and other code need to be mixed. That is a design choice that
> some have made, but there are other samples, e.g., Visual Studio projects,
> where UI and other code is separated. So, those folks should be encouraged
> to submit programs that meet the criteria and separate the code and files
> however they think is best. The criteria specify how the dialog should
> behave, not how the underlying code should be structured.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jamal
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/10/2010 2:30 PM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>>>>>> Thanks Ken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hadn't heard of Appcelerator but I'll look around for it and see
> what
>>>>>> I may be able to learn about it. It would certainly be convenient to
> get
>>>>>> iPhone and Android all in one project. How accessible is it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know that Fruit Basket is intended to show blind people how to do UI
>>>>>> without sighted help. I was just mentioning that I don't do a lot of
> UI
>>>>>> stuff as my UI ideas tend to suck and someone always needs to jump in
>>>>>> and help me out before shipping a program.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem with our friends in Venezuela didn't object to a blind
>>>>>> person writing UI code, they didn't like the entire program being
> placed
>>>>>> in a single source file as that would make for a lot of difficulty
>>>>>> working on multi-hacker projects and generally more difficult to find
>>>>>> any specific item.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blind people should learn how to make GUI code but I am still willing
> to
>>>>>> bet that the marketing department will want things rearranged as this
> is
>>>>>> the issue even with sighted hackers. Personally, I think emacs has the
>>>>>> greatest UI in the world so the average man on the street thinks I am
>>>>>> probably seriously mentally ill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to see FB for Gnome and for the Apple operating systems
> but
>>>>>> no volunteers have come forward yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cdh
>>>>>> On Oct 10, 2010, at 1:39 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually you can also use Appcelerator and when using it under Mac
> you
>>>>>>> can actually code for IPhone and Android both at the same time.
>>>>>>> Remember though the fruit basket was originally designed to show how
>>>>>>> to make UI for blind people. Using a sited person to do it really
>>>>>>> doesn't count. That is why I have not done one already.
>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>> *From:* programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> <mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Chris
>>>>>>> Hofstader
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:09 PM
>>>>>>> *To:* programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: iPhone development
>>>>>>> To develop iPhone apps you are almost forced to use the xcode
>>>>>>> development system that ships with every Macintosh. I know a few
> blind
>>>>>>> people who use it with pretty good success. The hardest part, of
>>>>>>> course, is arranging controls in your UI as there is no accessible
> way
>>>>>>> to do this.
>>>>>>> When coding for iPhone, I use emacspeak as my editor and xcode as an
>>>>>>> IDE and get help from a sightie for layout issues.
>>>>>>> I thought of trying to find someone to help make a "fruit basket" for
>>>>>>> OSX and iOS but haven't had any takers so far. I'm not even sure that
>>>>>>> OSX or iOS permit putting all of the UI code in the same file as the
>>>>>>> rest of the program which is how many of the Fruit Basket programs
> are
>>>>>>> designed. Also, while it's possible to write iOS code in C or C++,
> for
>>>>>>> all intents and purposes, you are forced to use Objective C, an odd
>>>>>>> language that only Apple supports as far as I can tell. So, a fruit
>>>>>>> basket program for a single language (Objective C is preferred for
> OSX
>>>>>>> as well) might be something we can find someone to do. Of course, if
>>>>>>> you embed a WebKit control in your iOS program, you then need to
>>>>>>> follow the WCAG guidelines for the content you expose using it so
>>>>>>> JavaScript and some other things become important but doing an FB
>>>>>>> program would be silly as it is all described nicely in the WCAG and
>>>>>>> other W3C standards documents.
>>>>>>> I had thought I had a student in Venezuela who was going to make
> Fruit
>>>>>>> Basket ports for GNU/Linux systems running the Gnome desktop. She is
>>>>>>> taking a class called "Computer Languages" which, when I took it back
>>>>>>> in 1980 or so, taught us 13 languages in 13 weeks and, as I saw it,
> it
>>>>>>> was a pretty major waste of time and, to this day, I've never seen
>>>>>>> anyone ask for Snobol/V, Wafter, Spitbol and a few of the others we
>>>>>>> had to learn back in the dark ages. Our Venezuelan student's
> professor
>>>>>>> liked the idea of the Fruit Basket for Gnome until he found files
> that
>>>>>>> contained the UI and the rest of the program as he thinks it is bad
>>>>>>> software engineering practice. Our student friend is doing all
> console
>>>>>>> programs instead and we're still looking for a volunteer to do the FB
>>>>>>> port.
>>>>>>> I do not find asking for sighted help on UI layout to be a problem
> for
>>>>>>> me. When I could see perfectly well, I made sucky user interfaces
> that
>>>>>>> someone would need to rearrange in a manner that the marketing people
>>>>>>> approved of. So, as far as I go, UI layout always required asking for
>>>>>>> help and I can usually find someone to spiff up my programs pretty
>>>>>>> efficiently.
>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 2010, at 4:48 PM, Michael Taboada (AI5HF) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> I was wondering if anyone knew of an accessible way to develop for
> the
>>>>>>> iPhone.
>>>>>>> I could use apple's software, or I could use a third party software
>>>>>>> solution.
>>>>>>> I am running windows.
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> -Michael.
>>>>>>> AI5HF
>>>>>>> http://mtgames.org/
>>>>>>> http://u4u.be/
>>>>>>> Skype: lilmike2
>>>>>>> Gmail: ai5hf.lilmike@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:ai5hf.lilmike@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> msn: ai5hf@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ai5hf@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> PC details:
>>>>>>> Intel quad core 2.66 ghz; 4 gb duel channel ddr2 ram; 1 TB harddrive.
>>>>>>> "The songs of the dead are the lamentations of the living." --
>>>>>>> Christopher Paolini, Eldest.
>>>>>>> "A world that contained a creature as amazing as that bumblebee was a
>>>>>>> world he wanted to live in." -- Christopher Paolini, Brisingr.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
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