gone way off topic, was: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash

one and one reason only, I don't like giving someone the ability to talk about me "behind my back" , but I may just do that here soon,
and this is all that I will say on this subject line to end all this, smile, thanks for your suggestion though, I appreciate it 
inthane
----- Original Message ----- From: "James Panes" <jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash



Hi Inthane,
You have the right and the ability to block messages from people that annoy 
you. Why don't you just do it?

Regards,
Jim
jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx
jimpanes@xxxxxxxxxxxx
"Everything is easy when you know how."
----- Original Message ----- From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:38 PM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
talk about childish writing? in vain, sigh, well since this actually came in 
before my getting off the topic, I'll reply, so I can count up how many
times you were wrong in that last bit of barefaced prevaricating,

to your statement of "immediately resort to violence at the first matter I
as your employer would want to address with you? " no, but with the attitude you've displayed here time and time again, and with your admission that you love to "push peoples buttons" both on list and off list in private E mails, you would eventually surpass the endurance of a saint, let alone me, and it would be extremely tempting, probably irresistible to punch you in the face 
instead of just telling you where to put your job.

as to your "is literally falling apart" statement, where do you get this
male bovine fecle matter from.  I am far from falling apart:
in a wheel chair, no, I was at one time, but have not been in one for the
last 17 years.
excuse me? what does being diabetic have to do with sleeping or any thing
else in this mass of , sigh, junk... , yes I am diabetic, but I sleep six
hours, sometimes seven a day, and that's it, where did you get this mass
pile of**{} from? unless its because I choose... to sleep later in the
mourning and get up around 10:00 to 10:30 AM, instead of at some time around 
6 to 9 am, but that has nothing to do with being diabetic, its my personal
choice
next, no I'm not in my fifties, smile and even if I was, I know enough men
and women in there 60's that you wouldn't want to piss off
and the next item, yes I am totally blind, what of it, if, continuing the
scenario this was based on, I was in your office, I would have little
trouble finding you, between your mouth, and the fact that I retrained in
martial arts, after I went blind, along with training myself to sound shoot 
with rifle, pistol and bow, tracking you would be no problem.

and as far as the impressions item, there is some truth in that, but most
folks that know me know that for the main part I treat folks decently until they go beyond a certain point, then I won't put up with there bull. and if 
a customer came to me with an attitude like yours, well that's why
businesses have the right to" refuse service".

I don't treat my customers as I do the occasional arrogant east end of a
donkey facing west, as most of the folks on this list know,.
and now that I have cleared the air on your montage of imaginings as I said 
in the post to teddy,

"I am out of here"
inthane
----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
In vane, with that 3rd grade plastic surgeon comment, are you implying you 
would immediately resort to violence at the first matter I as your
employer would want to address with you? These are pretty tough words from 
a guy who is literally falling apart. You're in a wheelchair aren't you?
How the hell do you expect to catch me. You're also diabetic and always
needing your nappy time are you not? You're in your 50s right? You're
probably totally blind too, right? Let's not forget that you're trying to
start that little computer home business. Tell me, what kinda impression
are you leaving for those on this list who would ever want to do business
with you. You are once again immediately resorting to violence here based
on an opinion of another. What's going to happen when a customer is
unhappy with your work? Are you going to threaten them with violence?
These lists are probably the entirety of your advertising engine, so why
would you wreck your only source of advertising? I never seem to be
shocked at the limited reasoning ability and short sightedness of
individuals on these lists.

Love,

Matthew
---- Original Message ----- From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 3:23 AM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
yes well I already know that if I had ever wound up hired by you before I 
herd you out here, that you would be calling your lawyer and looking for
a plastic surgeon, while I would be calling my lawyer and once out of
jail, looking for employment else where.

some companies know the value of having two people specialized in there
particular areas.
that's why, a couple I know of, the lady was employed at the company as a 
systems programmer, and the gentleman as a systems annalist there, not
because either was smarter than the other, but because each was better in a particular area, and when they worked on a project together (that's how they met) they worked there part and assisted if possible each other with 
problems that cropped up

later,
inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and
Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me 
at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming
languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:18 AM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash



Hi all,

As an employer, the bottom line is whether or not the person has the
requisite knowledge, skills, and abilities, and can get the job done
efficiently without the constant supervision and additional expense of 2 people doing the same job. Why would I want to hire someone if he or she 
will need someone else to complete or correct their work. I can simply
hire a single person with multiple skills that can get the job done by
him or herself and the entire group will work harmoniously as all will
pull their own weight. The goal as an employer is to get as much done
and paying as little as possible. Why would I hire 5 different companies 
to renovate a property when I can hire a single crew with all the same
skill sets. Think about it, I'm sure many of you have been in a
situation where you have found yourself with a group of blind people,
and I'm sure you've stood waiting impatiently while many in the group
have to be helped to do something you feel takes no effort--it is very,
very frustrating. I'm sure some sighted employees will feel the same
about a fellow blind employee they have to work with. Time is money,
unless you work for some nonprofit or governmental agency where
productivity is not crucial as there never seems to be any sense of
urgency or accountability in these agencies. A number of years ago when
I was looking for work with the government, I was told by a state
employment agency for the disabled that by law I only needed to be able
to complete 80% of the job description or else the government could be
charged with discriminating against me. I really wanted the job so I
didn't say anything, but I was actually really upset at the fact that
they were trying to sell me off as a person they "had" to hire rather
than someone they wanted to hire. My point? why hire someone you know
cannot possibly give you 100% when you can hire someone who will give
you 110% for the same amount of money. Regarding repeatedly asking
someone to look over your designs, this will get very old very fast even 
for the most Christian group member.

Thanks,

Matthew
---- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


Actually there are fields of web design that a blind person could do,
but I will have to say that the graphic design part of the field could
not be done.  If this is also not the case please let me know of any
blind people you know of that can take a black circle and with photoshop 
make it into an image of a clock from 1 to 12 o'clock with the correct
render shading etc. That was my original point.  While a blind person
could get a job in some positions of the web design process, graphics
design he or she will not be. Like any profession, web design has many
positions that can be filled. From concept designer to data management. You don't necessarily need to be the person laying out the look and feel 
of the web page to be a part of a web design team.  Another example of
what I mean is audio engineering.  Most people think of audio
engineering as sitting behind a mixing board with a ton of inaccessible
controls, but there are other positions in the audio engineering field
that don't require doing that part of the job.  Audio editor is also
part of audio engineering and that can very possibly be done using many
of the audio editing tools available to the blind.
----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita 
 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:39 AM
 Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


 Well, if somebody can create an html page, he can call himself a web
designer, because he arranged the text and graphics on the web page, set 
colors, fonts, and so on, but the quality of a web page design that's
made by a blind person is much lower than the one made by a sighted.

 And if the quality of the design made by a blind is low, that person
cannot compete with the sighted designers. This is a reason I say that
the blind web designer is not a web designer.

 Web page design doesn't mean just arranging the text and images on the
web page in a very basic way, but it means arranging them visually
aligning the images with the text, some elements from images with other
elements from the web page, it also means creating Javascript menus, or
using javascript to make the site easier to be used by a sighted.

 Creating .bat files could also imply using some programming, using if
statements for example, but I don't think a person that knows to create
some more complicated .bat files can call himself a "programmer".
 It is exactly the same in case of the blind web designers.

 Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: inthaneelf 
   To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
   Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:39 AM
   Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


   design, the English form, or more likely the American form of it,
means to create, not specifically to draw, and I said that some work
with a graphic is possible with the html editor I recommended, sigh, if
I need to put every single detail in a message I'll be typing for the
next week on one message, and I don't have time for that...
here if you can put the images on in the links, generate the code for 
the web page, and place images on a web page, properly, and other such
items of coding...  too numerous to be put here, and have it turn out
decently looking to the sighted, as well as be web accessibility
compliant, you are qualified for the title of Website designer.  if you
specialize in graphical creation, generation or modification of images
your a graphics designer (these are fast and very short descriptions...) 

   as I said "designer" is not a graphical term here specifically,
though a large number of things that are "designed" do have visual
aspects, but not all.

   I am a game designer, and I can't draw, and have never been able to
draw worth a damn. I can think of what I want an item in a game to look 
like, I can type out or in the past write out what I want it to look
like, or describe it to someone, I could, and still can, even build a
model of something I want in a graphic, paint it, have someone check for mistakes then photograph it and turn it into an image for use, but draw, 
never could, and probably never will even if I should be able to get my
sight back.

   regards,
   inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and 
Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit
me at:
   http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
   . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
   http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita 
     To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
     Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:01 PM
     Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


     If somebody cannot even crop a simple image, that person cannot
call himself a web designer.
Even a kid can adjust some image or table sizes in an html document 
by setting some attributes in some HTML elements, but this doesn't mean
that the person that can do this is a web designer.

     But maybe we speak about different terms. :-)

     See, in my native language, design means something related to
visual things, like clothing design, graphic art. There are even design
faculties that teach the students how to draw, how to do other visual
arrangements that cannot be done by the blind. On the other hand, there
are no faculties specialized only on "web design".

     And something else... The word "design" is very closed to the word
"desen" in my language, and desen means "drawing", so when I hear about
design, I understand that the person that does the design need to be
able to draw, to paint, to do graphics in general.
And another thing. If somebody should check and recheck and recheck 
the work of a web designer in order to see if what he done looks fine,
because he cannot do it, then I don't think that person can name himself 
a web designer.

     And by the way, I would like to see a good looking site made by a
blind if there is such a thing. Of course, not good looking and friendly 
for the blind, but good looking for the sighted users perspective. Is
there such a thing? If yes, then please show me, because until then I
won't believe that a blind person can work as a web designer.

     Thanks.

     Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: inthaneelf 
       To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
       Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:18 PM
       Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


       for that the company has a graphics designer, someone that
specializes in such things, though with the programs I recommended to
Marvin he can reliably size and place graphics on a web page, and I
believe it was on the old programming list, the same place that we had
this discussion last time.

       in some places and some smaller companies one person does the
graphics and the web design, in other places and larger companies the
graphics designer and the web designer are two different people and work 
in tandem on something like this.

       I don't know about slide shows, I don't remember if that was
mentioned by him directly or not, but I do know that folks are building
games in flash for the blind, go to the site I gave and look around, you 
will find them.

       and it may be a case as with power point, once one is sure one
has the proper materials for a PP presentation, one can construct a
slide show in it.   I have done so, though it was a long time back so
remember working in it, and yes, I remember having to work double hard
and taking the maximum amount of time that we were given for the
project, but I did it, and the project got me a B, so I think I did
alright.

       no, we can't yet work with graphics editing and/or enhancing
directly yet teddy, but that's not always the case in the world, and
stress the not always... as I mentioned above.

       regards,
       inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, 
and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
visit me at:
       http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
       . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
       http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita 
         To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
         Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:33 AM
         Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


         Where did he spoke?

         I am curious how can he create/crop/modify the images, or how
can he create the graphics on a Flash annimation and how he can verify
if what he done is ok.

         Where can I read about that?

         Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: inthaneelf 
           To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
           Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:03 AM
           Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash
here we go with this again, *sigh* we have had a professional 
web designer out here, who was and is blind...  invited by James homme,
and he spoke long and straight forward about this...

           later,
           inthane
           . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and
Applications, visit me at:
           http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
           . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
           http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message ----- From: Octavian Rasnita 
             To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
             Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:25 PM
             Subject: Re: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


             Web site development could mean very many things, so they
can tell you to do many things that are absolutely inaccessible for a
blind.

             It could mean server side programming, client side
programming, database development, server and network administration,
and these are accessible, but it could also mean web design which is not accessible, or so low accessible that it would not help any blind person 
to become a professional web designer.

             Discrimination means very many things also. Nothing could
exist without beeing discriminatory for some persons.
             For the blind perspective, something absolutely not
discriminatory would be something which has the same accessibility level 
for everyone, no matter if they can see or not.
In your case, if the other sighted persons would be able to do what that program requires, without using the display, it wouldn't be 
discriminatory, but it couldn't be that way, because all the sighted
persons think that "sighted is normal", while "blind is not normal".
In this case, you could ask them to allow you not to follow 
the classes that requires using the mouse, because you cannot use a
mouse.
             If the professors or other students would be able to do
what you need to do without a mouse but only with the keyboard, than I
think you would be able to do it also.

             Forcing a blind computer programmer to use a mouse could
mean discrimination.

             Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: marvin hunkin 
               To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
               Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:24 AM
               Subject: Accessible Adobe Photoshop and flash


               Hi.
               well, next year looking at doing the diploma in
information technology, website development.
a couple of challenges i have, is that a couple of units, 
i probably will not be able to do, as one is to use advanced and basic
features of adobe photoshop, to crop, manipulate images, and create 2d
and 3d animation, using adobe flash, as part of my major project.
               Now, the National Traning Information System, which is
governed by a national curriculum, for tafe across Australia, and comes
from the department of education, canberra.
               now, as i will have trouble being deemed competent,
because jaws, will not work with this software, as a core part of the
course, and i have spoken to my disability office and the main lecturer, 
who organises the learning curriculum and talks to other lecturers.
               they will be using adobe photo shop, adobe flash.
               i know, i could probably use the flash development kit,
but the major challenge is the graphics side of things.  So they are
willing to bend, in their curriculum, as they said i would have an
advantage, if i had sighted help to crop, edit and manipulate the
objects.
               so, got any tips, tricks, or any work arounds for that,
or is this a dissability discrimination act complaint, that might change 
their mind and bend to accomodate, not just me, but another vision
impaired friend of mine is doing the same diploma with new south wales
tafe, as this is a national curriculum, and has been rolled out as the
new training package for the past 12 months.
if you can let me know, how to get round this problem, as 
the other subjects, i should be able to use php, editor, my sql
database, visual studio.net 2005, for the asp stuff, etc.
               if anyone has had the same problem or situation, let me
know asap.
               having a meeting soon to review what i have done this
year for certificate iv in website development.
               cheers marvin.


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