Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks

  • From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:01:52 +0200

My argue was that python is less friendly because it forces us to use indentation. Isn't that true? 


Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
I think I am done with this thread to. As for the VS .net I agree not only 
that but try to use C++ builder without some kind of scripts it's a mess.
So that means to code accessibly without scripts you have to use your own
editor and a command line which is an accessibility change in itself.  If
you turn off the scripts in visual studio the intelesense goes dead, not
only that but with out
scripts designing forms are dead, finally even with the scripts there are
parts of 2008 that are not accessible.
If you get right down to it even Teddy's favorite language has accessibility problems. The worst one is there is little to no structure so there can be all kinds of stuff crammed together which makes it hard to read the flow of 
the program with a screen reader.  Unless you know the code enough to read
it in your sleep. I find that same problem with some C code so it's really 
what you get used to.

Anyway like I said I am done  with this thread because we are arguing with
someone who doesn't even know what he is arguing against as you have pointed 
out.

Ken


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Nick Stockton
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:10 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks

This will be my last response to this thread as I think it's gone from
someone asking a simple thing, For people to recommend a good programming
language for someone with no programming experience to learn to an
attack/defend python thread.

You asked:
"""
In perl you can write the entire program in a single line. You can even
write the program in the command line. Can you do that with python?
"""

Yes you can do boath with python.

You asked:
"""
In perl you can split an expression on more lines and it will work. Can you 
do the same thing with python?
"""

yes you can do that with python.

You stated:
"""
In perl you can indent the code with more or less spaces, whatever you like, 

or you can not indent the code at all. But you can't do that with python.
"""
in python you can indent the code with more or less spaces as well even just 

one space as long as you indent.  I tend to use four spaces as for me,
anything more is to many and anything less is to few.

Also in another message you asked:
"""
If python wouldn't have this issue of indentation, it wouldn't need
workarounds for making it a little bit friendlier.
So I don't understand what you don't like when I said that python is less
friendly for the blind than other languages.
"""
Because most languages and programs in general for that matter to one extent
or another can be a little unfriendly and require workarounds. I mentioned visual studio in my last message. Do you think it would be very accessible 
with out the screen reader scripts for it?  The screen reader scripts and
learning all the hotkeys for them are probably even bigger workarounds then adding a couple commented braces in python code. I don't use VS so someone 
else will have to confirm that but I do define screen reader scripts as
workarounds.  Now lets say you use the console to compile and you get some
output that scrolls off the screen. As far as I know it's quite hard for a blind user to use the cmd scrollback buffer and so What do you do? You pipe
the output to a text file and read it with a text editor or pipe it directly 

to a program for reading even though it might be a bit inconvenient to do.
Pipes are workarounds too.

Nick Stockton
----- Original Message ----- From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 4:20 AM
Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks



In perl you can write the entire program in a single line. You can even
write the program in the command line. Can you do that with python?

In perl you can split an expression on more lines and it will work. Can
you do the same thing with python?

In perl you can indent the code with more or less spaces, whatever you
like, or you can not indent the code at all. But you can't do that with
python.

Generally in perl you can do the same thing in very many ways, while in
python you are forced to do it in the single accepted way, and that's why
I don't like it.

Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 5:30 AM
Subject: RE: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks





What the heck are you talking about strict?  There is only one other
language that even comes close to being less strict and that would be
pearl
and I am not sure it is.

Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
Rasnita
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 4:36 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks

Well, not only the indentation makes me not like python, but also the
fact
that it is too strict, that it doesn't let you to create and arrange the
code how you like.
Java/C#/perl programs can be written even in a single line of code if the 
programmer wants that, and if the code is correct, it will run fine.
Maybe
there could be a few things that should be written in separate lines, but 


I
like to be able to arrange the code how I like.

Octavian
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks



Teddy has a great fear of the indentation requirements in Python's
sintax.



Needless to say, I also would disagree with his dismissing it out of
hand.

JW

Nick Stockton wrote:

Hmmm why do you say python is "one of the least friendly programming
languages for the blind"?  I started learning python a month or so ago
and in around a week I had written a program complete with a GUI and
install wizard that looks up barcodes on bcscan.com and will
automatically speak the output using the jfw and wineyes com objects as 
well as putting the output in a read-only edit box and automatically
setting focus to it so the output can be reviewed with the up and down
arrows.  I also made a button to pull up the edit page on bcscan.com
for
the item you scanned in your default web browser so you can add or edit 
the item info.  I also made hotkeys ALT-b to set focus to the barcode
entry edit box, ALT-o to set focus to the output and alt-e to activate
the add/edit button.  All this from me, a python newbie who doesn't
know
any other programming language in just over a week!
And what you might ask is my secret? Three things: The python tutorial 
at python.org, the speakup screen reader under gnu/linux and my most
secret weapon of all... google.

Nick Stockton
----- Original Message ----- From: "Octavian Rasnita"
<orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:58 AM
Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
No I don't recommend perl if is needed to create that kind of program. 

Perl is the best for web apps which are not very simple, and it is
also
good for desktop apps that require some specific things that can be
done



using some CPAN modules, because that way the coder won't need to do
very low-level programming as he might need to do with languages like 
Java or python.
If the program is just one that should be used by a single person, and 
if it doesn't need to be portable, and if it doesn't require very
complicated things, I would also recommend C#. I don't like VB.net
though. :-)

Anyway, from the perspective of accessibility and responsiveness, the
best choice is no doubt C++ with MFC, but it is much harder to create
a
program with C++/MFC than with DotNet, so DotNet is now prefered.

Of course, Java with SWT could be also a solution, but unfortunately
there is no accessible forms designer for the blind for creating
programs with SWT like with DotNet.

And python is one of the least friendly programming language for the
blind so of course I can't recommend it.

Octavian

----- Original Message ----- From: "Tyler Littlefield"
<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks



I would recommend c# or vb.net.
Teddy will no doubt recommend perl, but I think vb.net or c# would be 
the best for you


Thanks,
Tyler Littlefield
email: tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
web: tysdomain-com
Visit for quality software and web design.
skype: st8amnd2005

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose Lomeli"
<jose.lomeli93@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:18 PM
Subject: e: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks



I am thinking of using python or vb6 or any other ones.  I want to
create a checkings and savings program.  Please write back.
From Jose Lomeli.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tyler Littlefield" <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:04:17 -0700
Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks



hello,
first we need to decide what language your going to use.  any

ideas?

What kind of programs do you want to write?




Thanks,
Tyler Littlefield
email: tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
web: tysdomain-com
Visit for quality software and web design.
skype: st8amnd2005



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jose Lomeli" <jose.lomeli93@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 10:57 PM
Subject: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks




Hello; Listers, I am new to programming and I want to start

doing

this.  What are some tips and tricks I should know about and

what

program do I use for this and where can I download it? Please
write back.
From Jose Lomeli.
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