Re: Your Experience with Braille Displays
- From: Kerneels Roos <kerneels@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:38:53 +0200
Hi folks. Great stuff, thanks for the continued comments it is most
interesting and very illuminating to read about all the different viewpoints
and opinions. Personally it is a great encouragement for me to know there
are so, so many very successful blind programmers in the world out there,
and more than that, they are willing to hsare their knowledge and experience
daily.
If you still haven't commented about the Braille display issue, or if you
would like to add to what you've said already, please do so. I have been
reading and studying every word of the comments thus far, and I know many
more people are also benefitting from this discussion.
Even if your experience is more limited, you also might have something valid
to add -- you are not yet entrenched in this way or that way of doing
things.
Best regards,
Kerneels
On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 5:00 AM, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Well just so I put my 0.00005 cents in.
>
>
> I not only code efficiently I am a professional coder by trade and it's
> what
> I do as a home business and a hobby. I am 100% blind and the only Braille
> display I have is a RB 18 that I use with my IPhone because I hate typing
> on that thing when I want to send email or do a lot of chatting. I have
> never hooked it up to my current laptop. I have hooked it up to my
> computer
> in the past to test with it but I really only use a Braille display to test
> output for those who use one. In my current job I code for Windows Linux,
> and Mac, I code in Asm, python, c++, c, java, javascript, html , C#, VB,
> Lisp, Delphi, Pascal,, almost any Linux scripting language, HTA, Fortran,
> and I am sure I am missing some Languages I have forgot that I know. I can
> teach myself languages quickly and become proficient in them if I must and
> while I can see a use of a Braille display in coding I personally find it
> slow and cumbersome to have to type and read with my hands. I will mention
> though that I was cited for almost 21 years and have not yet made that 21
> years of blindness but I have almost made it there. I think if I was born
> blind and had been using Braille all my life it might really come in handy.
> In fact one of the guys I work with uses Braille to code with and I am
> always amazed at how fast he can code. I personally would be unable to
> keep
> up with him using Braille but I can keep up with him using speech.
>
> Now with all that said there are different tools for people who use Braille
> over those who use speech. There are different ways of setting up your
> environment to get the best out of what tools you use. For example if you
> use Braille and speech you don't need to hear every punctuation if you can
> see it in Braille. If you only have a 40 line display you will have to
> make your code fit in that or you're going to slow down quite a bit. I
> think if I had to use a Braille display I would have to get an 80 cell one.
> I will wait on the next Gen to buy one because they will be cheaper than
> 2000$ and have multiple lines. That will be a new day.
>
> I just wanted to let people know once again that you can be a very good,
> fast, and competent coder without a Braille display but you will need a
> good
> editor and sorry folks I know this will cause a fight but you will need
> Jaws. I can tell you that there is not one person out of the 5 blind
> coders
> I work with that use anything else. 2 of them have tried switching to
> other tools and still have things like Window-eyes and system access and
> NVDA on their computers for some things but Jaws is really the only way to
> professionally develop for windows, and Linux right now. You can all rant
> and rave it's ok but I have lots of reasons that I will not go into but in
> my now 20 years of coding blind there was only one other program and that
> was pre windows 98 and that was ASAP. I guess if your coding in Linux you
> could do with speak up but Orca is not ready yet not even in Vinux.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Midence
> Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 12:44 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Your Experience with Braille Displays
>
> Hi,
>
> I'll add the following to this discussion. I'll preface my comments
> by stating that I'm new to programming with my time in it measured in
> months. I'm a little more seasoned at html though which I don't
> consider a programming language although it has a few of the same
> quirks.
>
> I use Jaws 11 and a focus 80 braille display on a machine running
> windows xp pro and another running windows xp media center. I simply
> could not conceive of being able to code efficiently without one.
> Proofreading is so much simpler with a braille display than with
> speach alone. Also, editing the code can be much faster since a lot
> of braille displays now adays have routing buttons right above the
> cells that you can push to jump right to a bit of code you wish to
> edit. For instance:
>
> 1 // c++ program to make your pc greet you personally.
> 2 #include <string>
> 3 #include <iostream>
> 4 using namespace std;
> 5 int main ()
> 6 {
> 7 string nombre;
>
> 8 cout < "What is your name?" << endl;
> 9 cin >> nombre;
> 10 cout << "Hello, " << "nombre!':
> 11 return 0
> 12 ]
>
>
> This will not compile because I've got some syntax errors. On line 8,
> I've only got one left angle bracket instead of two (< instead of
> <<). On line 10, I've got a single quote (') and a colon (:) instead
> of a double quote and a semicolon on the end ( " and ;). On line 11,
> I don't have a semicolon at the end of my line and line 12 has a right
> bracket instead of a right brace ( ] and not a }).
>
> Now, when I run this code, my compiler throws a fit and gives all
> sorts of annoying little error messages. When I go back into my code
> to check it, unless I've got my punctuation settings at maximum with
> speech and arrow down line by line and wait until the speech is over
> for that line, I won't spot these errors right away. It might take me
> a few passes to find them. This is only 12 lines of code. I can't
> imagine how long and grueling this is with hundreds of lines of code.
> With my handy dandy focus 80 brailel display, however, I pan down the
> lines of code, run the old fingers across and spot the errors pretty
> quicly. I hit the routing button above that lonely < sign on line 8
> and type another one to make two. I do the same thing on line 10 at
> the end there to get my " and ; onto the line and I slap a semicolon
> on the end of line 11. I get to line 12, curse, delete the offending
> bracket and replace it with a brace by first routing to it with the
> routing button and just doing my replacement.
>
>
> also, I'm able to perceive all the indentation in the code nicely.
> I've got my braces at 8 spaces in and my text in the block at 5 spaces
> in from the left margin. When I learn Pyton, I don't anticipate
> having any trouble using braille. You CAN make Jaws tell you exactly
> hwo many blank spaces there are before some text but it's pretty
> annoying to hear.
>
> In html braille is even more critical since you can have lines and
> lines of text until you get to your tags. Having your screen reader
> spell every word or give you each and every punctuation mark in a
> multiparagraph webpage is simply too horrrible to think about
> especially when, most of the time, you just forgot to place your end
> tags just so or have two less than signs when you needed a less than
> and a greater than.
>
> You really need to get yourself a braille display. If you aren't a
> strong braille reader yet, make it a priority to become one. It will
> open up a whole new world for you and not just in programming.
> Hope this helps.
>
> Alex
>
>
> On 7/23/10, Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > Hi Kerneels.
> >
> > Glad to see your still looking in to this.
> > As I recommended I would try to see if you can borrow a display for a
> > month or so to find out if you get on with it. As I said to you I find
> > mine invaluable but I no some who can take or leave them.
> >
> > In terms of size my personal preference is as big as you can get. IMO it
> > allows you to see as much of the code in one go as you can but it all
> > depends on money.
> >
> > In terms of make I've used an Alva, focus and Tieman. The one I liked
> > most was the Tieman, it was a comby Braille 80. the controls were nice
> > and the Braille cells were lovely and clear. I don't know if you can
> > still get these. The Alva I've got is ok, it's a bit basic in terms of
> > controls but it does me ok. I use the focus 80 at work and its so. The
> > controls are nice and its generally a smaller bit of kit. It doesn't
> > seem as robust as the Alva, I've been using it from new for the last 5
> > years and some dots have already stopped working. The Alva I've had for
> > 7 years and it was second hand then and all but 1 dot is still working
> > fine. I also find the display on the focus a little mushy, I'm not sure
> > how else to describe it.
> >
> > In terms of screen reader support many people on this list will know I'm
> > a fan of Hal. IMO the Braille support in Hal is wonderful. I know there
> > are many users in Europe which don't use the speech at all with Hal,
> > just Braille. In comparison the last time I used Braille with jaws it
> > did seem a bit primitive but that was on jaws 7 so I would hope things
> > have moved on since then. I've never tried Braille with WE so someone
> > else may have some experience with it.
> >
> > HTH.
> > Nick.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
> > Roos
> > Sent: 22 July 2010 16:15
> > To: programmingblind
> > Subject: Your Experience with Braille Displays
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > In a recent conversation with a fellow member of this list, I got a
> > strong impression that, with the aid of a Braille display one would be
> > able to be a lot more productive when coding, especially if the display
> > is sufficiently large (80 cells for example).
> >
> > I myself have never used a Braille display and have been learning
> > Braille for the last year and a half with reasonable success. As a
> > programmer who has been in the industry for about 10 years now I can
> > totally understand how a Braille display could assist you, especially
> > with those long lines of object upon object ending in some deep down
> > function call. Or some of those heavily nested conditional C-style
> > expressions:
> > result = (condition1 || condition2) && condition3 ? value1 :
> > (condition4 ? value4 : value5)
> > or something similar and more complex -- the above one is quite trivial
> > :-).
> >
> > But how have you experienced programming with a Braille display at your
> > service?
> >
> > Has there been any particular model / make / design which you can
> > recommend above others?
> >
> > Are there any models you absolutely could not get along with, or which
> > were unreliable and broke all the time?
> >
> > And how about screen reader compattibility? In your opinion, does screen
> > reader X stand out at working the best with a Braille display while
> > screen reader Y failed you dismally.
> >
> > And lastly, has there been any particular language you absolutely could
> > not get any joy with while trying to read code with a Braille display?
> >
> > Many questions, I know, but feel free to respond with anything you feel
> > strongly about regarding this topic.
> >
> > Eager to hear your responses,
> > K
> > --
> > Kerneels Roos
> > Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
> > Skype: cornelis.roos
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >
> >
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>
--
Kerneels Roos
Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
Skype: cornelis.roos
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!
Other related posts:
