Think about this Jim: Visual Studio 2008 is old technology. The new VS 2010 is the new technology. I do not plan on doing a whole lot with 2008 since there are major changes in the 2010 versions where as there were very small changes in 2005 to 2008. The problem with 2010 is that allot of it, most of it, was written in wpf and friends. It uses UIA extensively and the screen reader companies are not up to speed with using tthat technology. Since much of the concepts of a Winforms or Website will be the same it is fine to do these tutorials. But I don't want to make them works of art - grin, just readable and understandable. Also, the 2010 ide is likely pretty much the same, MS loves to make us change everything but they don't like to change things for themselves, so what we learn here will likely apply to 2010. This is not a book, just a project we are all working on together and I am sort of documenting it and trying to set the technicals we work on by adding them to the project with some tutorials for beginners to help them get started. I am still slogging through testing things folks have brought up about IDE settings. Things are a little diferent from Windoweyes and JAWS perspectives in a very few instances. Without a bunch of folks trying to do the same thing we are not going to get a good overview of how best to set up visual studio for screen reader users nor the best ways to do things in the IDE. That comes from many diferent folks trying to do something one way, perhaps how I do it, not liking it and figuring womething else out. If their method works I can add it to the documents and put them up as finished documents when the module is done. Anyway, this is a team project and not a book I just am formatting things so we have a common platform of discussion about Visual Studio and taking notes. Rick USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Homme, James To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 12:44 PM Subject: RE: WinformBasics - IDE Accessibility Option Settings Hi Rick, I can express myself in writing. I'd be glad to help edit if necessary. Jim Jim Homme, Usability Services, Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 12:19 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: WinformBasics - IDE Accessibility Option Settings Hi Elf: I will encorporate this into the first tutorial on Creating the project, phew! I almost posted them and it is a hassle to change things after they are released. My IDE Settings have been cmassively ReStructured with navigation sections and wording but rather than RePost them I have given them a Version Number and will post them at the completion of this first module which will consist of perhaps 5 or 10 tutorials to create a simple project we can either build on or scrap before building on what we have learned. By then older versions of the tutorials should be better after folks slogg through them and hold my feet to the fire about any readability or technical issues and, or additions like this JAWS procedure for handling that bloody Error Window. Thanks for the update, that is how this will work. It won't work if it is just me writing another group of tutorials but only if others are involved, that is the best way to learn, by doing, not just by reading. Besides, when done other new programmers will have a cleaner and more relevent set of tutorials. Rick USA ----- Original Message ----- From: The Elf To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 10:21 PM Subject: Re: WinformBasics - IDE Accessibility Option Settings rick, I have compiled all of the info I had on the error list in VS 2005 (which should be applicable in 2008) into one reference document, hope this helps: * with the VS 2005 jaws scripts from: http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com/www. empowermentzone.com Below is the current definition of the HideErrorList script, attached to Alt+Shift+H by default. It says the phrase "Hide error list" if JAWS verbosity is at the beginning or intermediate levels, but not the advanced level of 2. It then sends keystrokes to activate the error list window, make it a "tabbed" window, and hide it. It pauses two tenths of a second for VS to process the keystrokes and then reads the current line. * closing it manually from the IDE menus and hot keys: Closing the Error List does seem to work in most cases. As another user pointed out the default behavior is for the Error List to be displayed after a build if that build results in errors; however, this can be changed so that the Error List isn't displayed post build by altering a setting in the options dialog. You can close the error list in a number of ways. All methods require that the focus is first set to the Error List, which you can do by selecting View > Error List. .You can then close the window by selecting Window > Hide using the menus. . shift + escape using keys, if you haven't set the Error List to a tabbed window. . if you have set the Error List to a tabbed window, close it by pressing ctrl + F4, . *it is a good idea to uncheck the option labeled 'Always show error list if build finishes with errors'. You can find this option in Tools > Options > Projects and Solutions. proprietor, The Grab Bag, for blind computer users and programmers http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises Specialists in customized computers and peripherals - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! www.alacorncomputer.com ----- Original Message ----- From: RicksPlace To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 6:29 AM Subject: Re: WinformBasics - IDE Accessibility Option Settings Another thing to do is to set the Error Window to a Tabbed Document. You do this after you have created your first project so I have not gotten into this yet. I am working on creating the project in VB.net and CSharp. I also have updated and cleaned up the Tutorials on setting up the IDE so they are much easier to walk through and added a section on how to use Context Help to read about anything you want to know more about while navigating around the IDE. In other words, you just cursor or tab to anything like one of the settings we set up in the Accessibility tutorials or anything else and the Context Help will tell you what that thingy is and describes a little about how it might be used. This is great for beginners who want to know what some item in a menu or setting in the IDE might do. I think Sunday is a good day to post up the revised Tutorials and I will leave them alone going forward. I also add a Version Number to each tutorial so anyone saving them will know the most recent version if they want to have a repository of archived articles. I am doing this because I will change any of the tutorials if we find better settings or want to add more examples or explanations to the initial versions of the tutorials as we develop the project. This is for guys like Jamal or Inthane who plan on archiving them so they have the most recent version up on their websites going forward. In my next post I will include the Updated IDE Accessibility Tutorials so, if you walked the original ones, you can read through the new ones to make sure everything is in order and you can see how to use Context Help since this is a great learning tool to get some initial understanding of many of the IDE features out of the box. Downloading and installing the JAWS Scripts andConfiguring JAWS and the IDE is the most complicated thing a beginner will have to do but I know of no way around doing this - I guess it is what it is. Creating a project can be done in 1 minute or less but setting up JAWS and the IDE for accessibility can take days of slogging through allot of technical details. It is what it is so don't get frustrated and don't give up. It will get much easier after this first tutorial. Just take your time, get the job done right and things will improve over the next week or 2 markedly. Rick USA Rick USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Jacob Kruger To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 8:31 AM Subject: Re: WinformBasics - IDE Accessibility Option Settings I generally find that if I just hide the error window, it won't pop up unless I ask it to not continue after compilation errors: Alt + Shift + H or Alt + Shift + E to specifically show it. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' ----- Original Message ----- From: RicksPlace To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 6:03 PM Subject: Re: WinformBasics - IDE Accessibility Option Settings OK, that setting seems like it will turn off the BackgroundCompiler that runs all the time popping up messages you don't really want. I had tried to figure out how to turn it off in Vb.net but I do not think there is a way. That might be a very big help and might even help keep the bloody Error Window from being such a problem from time to time. I think that will help allot to keep your work in the editor clean. Try making an intentional typeing error for a keyword. Then if the error does not cause a problem, bring up the Error Window from under the View menu to see if your intentional error is listed. If so you are in great shape. If not you would have to click build to get the errors I think. I am still trying to get the blasted Context Help to read consistently. I think I have a trick that will make it work on a sconsistent basis if it does not work the first try. Ya, If the help details don't come up but just a blurb about waiting for online docs, the help is likely there and readable with the mouse. To get it to read with the cursor and have the links on the Help Page in the Help Browser work, I just view the source code from under the View menu, close the Code Window and the Help Browser seems to have been refreshed with the Help Detail contents and links. Rick USA Rick USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Marang To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 11:09 AM Subject: Re: WinformBasics - IDE Accessibility Option Settings Thanks again for these workshops. While following your C Sharp IDE settings, I think I found the setting to turn off what was annoying me most while attempting to learn Visual Basic. In your instructions it says "Show Live Symantic Errors is unchecked.". I hope this is talking about the immediate errors that want to warn you that there is no "End If" as soon as you type in "If". There is also a setting to limit the error window, but it's setting is only temporary. I am hoping this reduces my annoyance while typing. Don Marang From: RicksPlace Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 3:02 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: WinformBasics - IDE Accessibility Option Settings Here are the first tutorials. They are how I set up the IDE for Accessibility with Windoweyes. Ask any questions you have about particular settings. That is what this series is all about - Sharing questions, answers and applying the groups knowledge and experience. When all the ideas have been discussed and questions answered we will move on to the next tutorial on creating the WinformBasics project using the IDE. One note, if you use JAWS get the Scripts installed. Another point for JAWS users is to turn off the thingy that displays Unlabeled Graphics in JAWS. Another fellow was getting allot of noise from JAWS reading unlabeled graphics making his IDE quite messy to navigate so he turned that feature off in JAWS. Finally, I am new to CSharp and the IDE settings are diferent so if you see something I have set that could be better let me know. I will do some reading on particular settings as they come up during the project. I have not used Intellisense much so those settings will likely change in CSharp when I try them out. Again, ask questions so we can discuss the settings and use the cumulative brain power of the group to answer questions before moving on to creating the actual project. We can not deal with every setting but there are settings applicable to accessibility and we can research those and some others if anyone has a question not answered in my rather short and non explanitory tutorials on this subject. Happy Programming All! Rick USA __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5137 (20100522) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or affiliates.