Re: Window Eyes
- From: "Jackie McBride" <abletec@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:51:07 -0700
Octavian:
When I tried to install eloquence w/dolphin, it wouldn't install it up
either. I read that the viavoice outloud interferes w/this. I believe
u said u had it on your system, so, if u really want eloquence & can
give up viavoice, get it out of your registry & then try installing
eloquence. I don't know why they won't play nice w/each other, but...
U will need to edit the registry for this because even when I removed
viavoice, it didn't remove it from the registry & I had to edit it by
hand. If u feel comfortable doing that, then go for it. Otherwise, u
should probably get some help, &, in any event, back that sucker up!
HTH.
On 4/14/08, inthaneelf <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Octavian,
>
> your talking about using hot keys, did you ever wonder what else that
> "windows key" is good for, *sigh* Octavian you just contradicted yourself
> with that one, there are a half dozen built in hot keys using the windows
> key, and there is a mini application that will let you program any number of
> them for yourself.
>
> its called winkey, and its available from:
> www.jfwlite.com
>
> laters,
> inthane
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mario Percinic" <mario.percinic@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 1:29 AM
> Subject: RE: Window Eyes
>
>
> Bla bla bla bla bwoioioioioing!!!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian Rasnita
> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 9:46 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Window Eyes
>
> Oh yes, I like to learn new ways of doing things if I need to explain them
> to the clients, to tell them what they need to do in order to use our
> applications, and I also like the new things that are real improvements.
>
> But I don't like the changes when I need to use them myself and when they
> are not improvements.
>
> Is the Windows key an improvement? For me it is not at all, because I don't
> know if I use the Start menu 10 times a week, and this usually happends when
> I press there "u" for "Shut down".
> I prefer to define hotkeys for the most used applications.
> That's why I take off the Windows and context menu keys from the newer
> keyboards right after I buy them.
>
> What should I change for finding those changes a good thing? To do a lot of
> manual work and start the applications from the Start menu instead of using
> hotkeys?
>
> Right after installing Windows and Jaws, it usually takes me a week to find
> all the settings and changing I want. The first thing is to make some
> Windows settings, then to put Jaws to speak as few things as possible if
> they are not needed (for example I comment every SayTutorial line from the
> default.jss, because if I press insert+tab, I don't find useful to hear
> "press left or right arrows to select an item))
> I also don't like to hear "unread" for every new message in Outlook Express,
> because I jump to the new messages using Control+U, and I always know that
> the message is an unread one. And after some time, I know that a message is
> an unread one if Jaws tell me "bold" when I press Insert+F on it.
>
> I know that the most companies don't care for those who know to use very
> well a computer, but do care for the masses, for those who don't know,
> because they bring more money, and for those users is important to give more
> hints, tips and helpful information that they never read anyway.
>
> I understand that an american might not understand a text that contains many
> letters that sound like degrees, thorn, and other strange like these, and it
> would be much friendly to speak those letters as s and t.
>
> Even the name of the capital of Romania is spoken and written as Bucharest
> in english, although it should be written as Bucureşti, with a degrees
> letter in it, and read something like Bucureshti, but it was changed to be
> easily for the masses.
>
> Adapting to what the masses prefer means becoming more stupid, and I don't
> like that, because I am not very intelligent anyway.
> :-)
>
> Octavian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pratik Patel" <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 12:43 AM
> Subject: RE: Window Eyes
>
>
> Octavian,
>
> Please take this is a friendly message.
>
> The world of programming, out of all fields, is an extraordinarily growing
> and changing field. New things are invented and discarded. It's hard to
> keep up as it is even if you're not a blind programmer. And, it is even
> more difficult when you are blind because the tools take a little while to
> catch up. You have to be willing to experiment, change your ways, learn new
> things--especially if you don't like them, and be absolutely quick about it.
> If you can't or unwilling, you run the large risk of becoming a relic.
>
> Pratik
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian Rasnita
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 12:51 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Window Eyes
>
> Well, you are right about Jaws, but I can't say that Window Eyes is better
> if it can't work at all with SWING apps, I also don't know how well it works
> with programs like Visual Studio, but my complaints about it is not
> regarding the things that I need to learn, but the things that I need to get
> used to, and which are easier to access under Jaws, as I explained before.
>
> If someone likes to work with the num pad for using arrow keys, ... it's own
> job, but I don't like it at all.
>
> I never like changing things, and I don't want to leave my country.
> I have a good job and I don't want to change it, and that's why I like to
> use a certain program like I used to use it in previous versions.
>
> Octavian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mario Percinic" <mario.percinic@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 6:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Window Eyes
>
>
> > Well, that's the problem my friend because you don't like to learn new
> > things and you'll always stay behind, mumbeling that this or that doesn't
> > work as you expect. If someone who is blined wants to be good in what ever
> > feeld, specially I.T, he or she has to learn allot in order to have good
> > information and in order to represent blind community. First, try to ajust
> > to new software, learn how to use it, and don't expect from it to do
> > exactly what its suppose to do as your previous screen reader did, because
> > windoweyes is not jaws, it has its own strenghs and weeknesses, but
> > stating that jaws is the best screen reader, is just not right from
> > various points of view. First, windoweyes people never released their
> > version out before they weren't sure that 99 % of the things worked as
> > they expected, which is not the case with freedom scientific. So many
> > versions of jaws came out which from time to time became more and more
> > buggy, and since jfw 7, from user points of few we can't see nothing
> > special in the improvement of new versions, just various changes
> > reguarding controls of this or that application. Jaws 8 ... what was
> > that, nothing, unstable comercial application, for which some users paid
> > hell allot of money. vista was released, all other screen readers
> > including, dolphins hal, system access, gw's windoweyes and even
> > nonvisual desktop access which is open source screen reader found better
> > way how to handle problems with vista than it was the case with freedom
> > scientific.
> > Ok, jaws 9 is released, and since i'm using it, i can see that its
> > stability improved, but on the other hand freedom is geting worse and
> > worse in their sapi5 support, which is very funny, considering the case
> > where FS people advertize support for sapi5 and their partnership with
> > nuance which provides realspeak tts synths which are btw multilingual.
> > Maybe jfw 9 works good only with english synths and switching between
> > eloquence and some realspeak tts works good, but when there are different
> > languages and tts synths installed on the system and when jaws 9 is used,
> > it has really lots of problems with sapi5, and that's because of very bad
> > sapi 5 jaws driver for it. That means again that someone who is
> > programming and testing the application did very bad job at the beta
> > testing stage.
> > I worked in the Croatian association of the blind, oficial Jaws dealer for
> > Croatia and since i started to notice the problems with various sapi5
> > synths, i was reporting the problems to freedom scientific very
> > frequently, exchanged lots of email messages with them providing them with
> > all info they needed and even had a few phone calls with their tech
> > support. What i got as the end answer from their tech support is something
> > like this:
> > "hello, we are working for sapi5 support for arabic speech synth which
> > will work with jaws. On our systems we don't have problems wehn the speech
> > synths are switched, so we can tell that jaws works good with sapi5
> > support".
> >
> > After the answer like this, what can you think about it. Nothing special,
> > Freedom scientific is doing what they think is the best, and they don't
> > care for the end customers, which is not the case with the rest of the
> > companys involved in the screen reader development.
> > Gw came out with universal scripting system for windoweyes and com
> > automation objects which supports scripting in what ever programming
> > language. and i'm very curious with what will fs do to keep up, i'm afraid
> > nothing special. More and more users will slowly switch to windoweyes,
> > why, because for the same amount of money you will get more features and
> > much better tech support, + when you want to use remote desktop, you don't
> > need to pay extra 200 bucks just to get support for rdp which is the case
> > with jaws. When you buy windoweyes you get portable version which works
> > very wel from the thumb drive.
> > I'm not going to state the names of very good blind developers and
> > computer users just to protect them, but from their statements on various
> > lists, blogs and shows, you can see that they are acomplishing their daily
> > tasks much better with windoeyes than with jaws, which wasn't the case a
> > few years back.
> > Someone stated a few days ago that todays screen reader success is in the
> > scripting support, and really that's true, who ever finds a better way how
> > to write easy interface for scripting which will provide easy usage and
> > good flexibility, is the winner.
> >
> > What to tell you at the end, just what i told you at the beginning, stop
> > complaining and start learning new things. If you will be good in the
> > things you do, you can look for the jobs in the other countrys and leave
> > Romania, at leest that's what i do now.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 3:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: Window Eyes
> >
> >
> >> Sorry but I don't agree.
> >>
> >> As I said, Insert+tab for reading the current control that has the focus
> >> is one of the most used keys I use in Jaws, and I am used to never use
> >> the num pad, which I don't like at all.
> >> It is more ergonomical to leave my right hand over the arrow keys and
> >> insert/delete/page up/down/home/end keys, and my left hand on the left of
> >> the keyboard, and as the Insert key is the most important key I got used
> >> to use in a screen reader, I found much easier to use insert+Tab instead
> >> of moving the right hand for typing Control+Shift+S as Jamal told that
> >> would make almost the same thing in Window Eyes.
> >>
> >> Oh, in fact maybe I'm lieing, because a hotkey that I use even more than
> >> Insert+Tab, is Insert+F12 for hearing the time.
> >> I need to use that for hearing the time, and for beeing sure that the
> >> computer is responding, or for hearing if the keyboard is not locked (put
> >> in help mode on).
> >>
> >> And Insert+F12 is also much easier to type than Insert+T, because those
> >> keys are very closed and I can do it with a single hand.
> >>
> >> And by the way, the most used screen reader is Jaws for the moment, and
> >> many users that use Jaws should make an effort for passing from it to
> >> Window Eyes, so offering a way of using the same key layout could be an
> >> advantage for attracting those users.
> >>
> >> I like reading, listening music, and doing other things, but I don't like
> >> learning. I like to know more and more useful things, but I don't like to
> >> make an effort without benefits.
> >> If Window Eyes would be offering the same key layout as Jaws, it would be
> >> much easier for Jaws users.
> >>
> >> I need to learn programming because otherwise I can't write programs and
> >> I can't do what I want. But if I don't like Window Eyes' hotkeys, I use
> >> Jaws.
> >>
> >> As I told before, I had previously tested Window Eyes, but I didn't like
> >> that I needed to use the num pad, and that's why I use Jaws.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Octavian
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 6:15 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Window Eyes
> >>
> >>
> >>> Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> >>> "even after installing the Eloquence common modules and Eloquence for
> >>> English language manually from the Window Eyes package, even though it
> >>> installed successfully, I can't detect Eloquence with Jaws..."
> >>> Doesn't JFW use a modified version of Eloquence?
> >>> One thing I'm noticing is that you are wanting, as you have stated
> >>> yourself, JFW with a diferent name, better stability, etc. I want to
> >>> destroy the notion of this ever happening now. Window Eyes and JFW,
> >>> while targeting a similar set of users, have fundamental differences.
> >>> You can't simply slap the JFW frontend onto the underlying structure of
> >>> Window Eyes.
> >>>
> >>> In my opinion, Window Eyes has the potential to become the definitive
> >>> choice for Windows users' looking for a screen reader, assuming they're
> >>> open to commercial products. What we've heard about Window Eyes 7 is
> >>> exciting and, if managed right, could really make Window Eyes'
> >>> capability grow exponentially.
> >>>
> >>> But for as good as Window Eyes is or will become, it will never be truly
> >>> useful if one approaches it as if they're getting an upgrade of sorts to
> >>> their version of JFW. I discourage JFW converts from using the JAWS
> >>> layout, to be honest, because I think the advantages of Window Eyes are
> >>> more apparent and appreciated when viewed in their native context. I
> >>> know some users who have successfully switched back to the JAWS layout
> >>> for the familiarity of so many hot keys, but they for a time ran Window
> >>> Eyes completely the way its developers envisioned it to really grasp how
> >>> it works. Perhaps most importantly, how it worked differently than JFW.
> >>>
> >>> Teddy and others, Window Eyes might be able to do a lot for you now, and
> >>> I suspect that will only increase in the near future with the new
> >>> release. But I strongly advise that you approach it as you would any new
> >>> application you're interested in, learning its own unique nuances,
> >>> quirks, and ways of handling things.
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Jared
> >>> __________
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--
Jackie McBride
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