RE: Window Eyes
- From: "Pratik Patel" <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 17:43:22 -0400
Octavian,
Please take this is a friendly message.
The world of programming, out of all fields, is an extraordinarily growing and
changing field. New things are invented and discarded. It's hard to keep up
as it is even if you're not a blind programmer. And, it is even more difficult
when you are blind because the tools take a little while to catch up. You have
to be willing to experiment, change your ways, learn new things--especially if
you don't like them, and be absolutely quick about it. If you can't or
unwilling, you run the large risk of becoming a relic.
Pratik
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian Rasnita
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 12:51 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Window Eyes
Well, you are right about Jaws, but I can't say that Window Eyes is better
if it can't work at all with SWING apps, I also don't know how well it works
with programs like Visual Studio, but my complaints about it is not
regarding the things that I need to learn, but the things that I need to get
used to, and which are easier to access under Jaws, as I explained before.
If someone likes to work with the num pad for using arrow keys, ... it's own
job, but I don't like it at all.
I never like changing things, and I don't want to leave my country.
I have a good job and I don't want to change it, and that's why I like to
use a certain program like I used to use it in previous versions.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mario Percinic" <mario.percinic@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: Window Eyes
> Well, that's the problem my friend because you don't like to learn new
> things and you'll always stay behind, mumbeling that this or that doesn't
> work as you expect. If someone who is blined wants to be good in what ever
> feeld, specially I.T, he or she has to learn allot in order to have good
> information and in order to represent blind community. First, try to ajust
> to new software, learn how to use it, and don't expect from it to do
> exactly what its suppose to do as your previous screen reader did, because
> windoweyes is not jaws, it has its own strenghs and weeknesses, but
> stating that jaws is the best screen reader, is just not right from
> various points of view. First, windoweyes people never released their
> version out before they weren't sure that 99 % of the things worked as
> they expected, which is not the case with freedom scientific. So many
> versions of jaws came out which from time to time became more and more
> buggy, and since jfw 7, from user points of few we can't see nothing
> special in the improvement of new versions, just various changes
> reguarding controls of this or that application. Jaws 8 ... what was
> that, nothing, unstable comercial application, for which some users paid
> hell allot of money. vista was released, all other screen readers
> including, dolphins hal, system access, gw's windoweyes and even
> nonvisual desktop access which is open source screen reader found better
> way how to handle problems with vista than it was the case with freedom
> scientific.
> Ok, jaws 9 is released, and since i'm using it, i can see that its
> stability improved, but on the other hand freedom is geting worse and
> worse in their sapi5 support, which is very funny, considering the case
> where FS people advertize support for sapi5 and their partnership with
> nuance which provides realspeak tts synths which are btw multilingual.
> Maybe jfw 9 works good only with english synths and switching between
> eloquence and some realspeak tts works good, but when there are different
> languages and tts synths installed on the system and when jaws 9 is used,
> it has really lots of problems with sapi5, and that's because of very bad
> sapi 5 jaws driver for it. That means again that someone who is
> programming and testing the application did very bad job at the beta
> testing stage.
> I worked in the Croatian association of the blind, oficial Jaws dealer for
> Croatia and since i started to notice the problems with various sapi5
> synths, i was reporting the problems to freedom scientific very
> frequently, exchanged lots of email messages with them providing them with
> all info they needed and even had a few phone calls with their tech
> support. What i got as the end answer from their tech support is something
> like this:
> "hello, we are working for sapi5 support for arabic speech synth which
> will work with jaws. On our systems we don't have problems wehn the speech
> synths are switched, so we can tell that jaws works good with sapi5
> support".
>
> After the answer like this, what can you think about it. Nothing special,
> Freedom scientific is doing what they think is the best, and they don't
> care for the end customers, which is not the case with the rest of the
> companys involved in the screen reader development.
> Gw came out with universal scripting system for windoweyes and com
> automation objects which supports scripting in what ever programming
> language. and i'm very curious with what will fs do to keep up, i'm afraid
> nothing special. More and more users will slowly switch to windoweyes,
> why, because for the same amount of money you will get more features and
> much better tech support, + when you want to use remote desktop, you don't
> need to pay extra 200 bucks just to get support for rdp which is the case
> with jaws. When you buy windoweyes you get portable version which works
> very wel from the thumb drive.
> I'm not going to state the names of very good blind developers and
> computer users just to protect them, but from their statements on various
> lists, blogs and shows, you can see that they are acomplishing their daily
> tasks much better with windoeyes than with jaws, which wasn't the case a
> few years back.
> Someone stated a few days ago that todays screen reader success is in the
> scripting support, and really that's true, who ever finds a better way how
> to write easy interface for scripting which will provide easy usage and
> good flexibility, is the winner.
>
> What to tell you at the end, just what i told you at the beginning, stop
> complaining and start learning new things. If you will be good in the
> things you do, you can look for the jobs in the other countrys and leave
> Romania, at leest that's what i do now.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 3:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Window Eyes
>
>
>> Sorry but I don't agree.
>>
>> As I said, Insert+tab for reading the current control that has the focus
>> is one of the most used keys I use in Jaws, and I am used to never use
>> the num pad, which I don't like at all.
>> It is more ergonomical to leave my right hand over the arrow keys and
>> insert/delete/page up/down/home/end keys, and my left hand on the left of
>> the keyboard, and as the Insert key is the most important key I got used
>> to use in a screen reader, I found much easier to use insert+Tab instead
>> of moving the right hand for typing Control+Shift+S as Jamal told that
>> would make almost the same thing in Window Eyes.
>>
>> Oh, in fact maybe I'm lieing, because a hotkey that I use even more than
>> Insert+Tab, is Insert+F12 for hearing the time.
>> I need to use that for hearing the time, and for beeing sure that the
>> computer is responding, or for hearing if the keyboard is not locked (put
>> in help mode on).
>>
>> And Insert+F12 is also much easier to type than Insert+T, because those
>> keys are very closed and I can do it with a single hand.
>>
>> And by the way, the most used screen reader is Jaws for the moment, and
>> many users that use Jaws should make an effort for passing from it to
>> Window Eyes, so offering a way of using the same key layout could be an
>> advantage for attracting those users.
>>
>> I like reading, listening music, and doing other things, but I don't like
>> learning. I like to know more and more useful things, but I don't like to
>> make an effort without benefits.
>> If Window Eyes would be offering the same key layout as Jaws, it would be
>> much easier for Jaws users.
>>
>> I need to learn programming because otherwise I can't write programs and
>> I can't do what I want. But if I don't like Window Eyes' hotkeys, I use
>> Jaws.
>>
>> As I told before, I had previously tested Window Eyes, but I didn't like
>> that I needed to use the num pad, and that's why I use Jaws.
>>
>>
>>
>> Octavian
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 6:15 PM
>> Subject: Re: Window Eyes
>>
>>
>>> Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>>> "even after installing the Eloquence common modules and Eloquence for
>>> English language manually from the Window Eyes package, even though it
>>> installed successfully, I can't detect Eloquence with Jaws..."
>>> Doesn't JFW use a modified version of Eloquence?
>>> One thing I'm noticing is that you are wanting, as you have stated
>>> yourself, JFW with a diferent name, better stability, etc. I want to
>>> destroy the notion of this ever happening now. Window Eyes and JFW,
>>> while targeting a similar set of users, have fundamental differences.
>>> You can't simply slap the JFW frontend onto the underlying structure of
>>> Window Eyes.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, Window Eyes has the potential to become the definitive
>>> choice for Windows users' looking for a screen reader, assuming they're
>>> open to commercial products. What we've heard about Window Eyes 7 is
>>> exciting and, if managed right, could really make Window Eyes'
>>> capability grow exponentially.
>>>
>>> But for as good as Window Eyes is or will become, it will never be truly
>>> useful if one approaches it as if they're getting an upgrade of sorts to
>>> their version of JFW. I discourage JFW converts from using the JAWS
>>> layout, to be honest, because I think the advantages of Window Eyes are
>>> more apparent and appreciated when viewed in their native context. I
>>> know some users who have successfully switched back to the JAWS layout
>>> for the familiarity of so many hot keys, but they for a time ran Window
>>> Eyes completely the way its developers envisioned it to really grasp how
>>> it works. Perhaps most importantly, how it worked differently than JFW.
>>>
>>> Teddy and others, Window Eyes might be able to do a lot for you now, and
>>> I suspect that will only increase in the near future with the new
>>> release. But I strongly advise that you approach it as you would any new
>>> application you're interested in, learning its own unique nuances,
>>> quirks, and ways of handling things.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Jared
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