RE: Web Page Editor for the Blind

Well i probably shouldn't open this can of worms, but i'm making a subtle 
statement by using Math ML in my application.  i think that things should be 
done the right way the first time.  So many different types of content can be 
embeded into Web pages, but we still haven't adopted a standard way of 
representing mathematics simply because sighted users would rather just use 
graphics.  The only other popular alternative is an ad hoc ASCII system for 
representing mathematics-- and i see mathematics as an absolute essential in 
communication.  i see this as not only the right step for the blind, but for 
communication in general.

In my opinion, the blind community should be the first to make a stand because 
sighted users just aren't going to get it.

So in the mean time, you could install a plug-in if you're using Internet 
Explorer:  http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathplayer/download.htm?src=mplogo
Math Player displays mathematics very, very nicely for sighted users and also 
reads it very well for blind users.  You can also use my browser / screen 
reader to traverse mathematical expressions, but i'll admit this version isn't 
really very usable yet.
The other alternative is to use a standards compliant browser, like Fire Fox, 
until Microsoft gets with the program.

dusty.......


> From: orasnita@xxxxxxxxx
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:42:18 +0300
> 
> I think that the time needed for hearing "button" is not longer than the 
> time needed to hear a beep, but it is more clear what it refers to than a 
> beep.
> 
> The comparison with how the sighted associated those form elements is not 
> valid in my opinion. Why?
> 
> A sighted person can associate a raised form button with a real button 
> because a real button is usually raised. But a blind person cannot naturally 
> associate a real button with a certain beep, because the buttons usually 
> don't beep, but if they will hear that element is a "button", it would be 
> very clear.
> 
> I've seen you've used MathML in your html document, but can you tell us how 
> can we read those math formulas? Internet Explorer doesn't read them right 
> for sure.
> 
> Octavian
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 5:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
> 
> 
> > This method of generating audio icons is interesting. It does appear to 
> > hold the potential of speeding up computing, but it might have a steep 
> > learning curve as the new user will have to take lots of time out to learn 
> > the sounds then create the mental associations with the sound and the 
> > intended action. In other words, there is a possibility of new users 
> > giving up on it as they might deem it much more difficult to use than the 
> > more common methods of computing. That is, it will be easier for them to 
> > know what to do with an audio message telling them "Ok," than an audio 
> > message telling them "beep beep." Now that I think of it, if you attach 
> > piano sounds to the audio-icons you might end up composing quite a musical 
> > piece and not even know it.
> >
> > Then again there is the noise factor as all these strange sounds might 
> > annoy or at the very least distract others in the vicinity.
> >
> > I do believe that your audio-icons do have great potential in that they 
> > can be of great use to power users that only need that tiny hint of 
> > reassurance they're moving along and clicking what they intend to click.
> >
> > "Oh wait," I just thought of something, doesn't this type of computing 
> > already exist to some extent within the Jaws speech and sounds manager?
> >
> > Regardless, I would continue exploring this interaction channel as it 
> > might ultimately yield lots of efficiency for the proficient blind 
> > computer user.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Matthew
> > ---- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "dusty bray" <dusty_bray@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 7:19 PM
> > Subject: RE: Web Page Editor for the Blind
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Yeah, you're definitely right, inthane-- it should have an option to turn 
> >> off the sounds, but this version is severely lacking in many, many ways 
> >> right now.  i just wanted to give everyone an idea of how this system 
> >> works.
> >>
> >> And honestly, i think if i gave that option initially, then everyone 
> >> would just turn it off and not actually try to make it work  smile.  i 
> >> anticipate this being somewhat of a learning curve because the user has 
> >> to build mental connections between a sound and its meaning.  In the same 
> >> way, users had difficulty transitioning from command line to Windows 
> >> based operating systems because the graphical symbols were totally 
> >> unfamiliar at first.  But today, there exists a universally recognized 
> >> set of graphics for identifying objects, and these graphics allow sighted 
> >> users to work more efficiently now.  i see an opportunity to use 
> >> background noises for the same purpose.  You could fit a lot of useful 
> >> information in that empty space.
> >>
> >> Of course, Windows has already tried to incorporate sounds into the 
> >> interface, but these sounds were used very inappropriately.  Instead of 
> >> associating objects with sounds, they associated actions with sounds, 
> >> which gives information after the fact.  So even as i use this new 
> >> system, i'm having to consciously reprogram myself not to think of these 
> >> sounds as actions but as markers for object types.
> >>
> >> But i do want to know if people find this particular set of sounds 
> >> overbearing.  Should i adjust the volumes?  Can you hear the voice 
> >> clearly over the sounds?
> >>
> >> Also, did you ever recieve my original message??  That's really strange. 
> >> It's still programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, right?
> >>
> >> Ok, well definitely give me your oppinion if you get a chance to use the 
> >> software.  Thanks,
> >>
> >> dusty.......
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
> >>> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:23:42 -0700
> >>>
> >>> interesting, I got your reply to Dusty's message, but haven't received 
> >>> the
> >>> original even yet, hmmmmm!
> >>>
> >>> I haven't tried your ap yet Dusty, but it would be nice if you could 
> >>> reverse
> >>> things, in other words, turn off the added sounds, and return it to full
> >>> speaking of the items, since I don't do well with sounds, maybe a check 
> >>> box
> >>> in an options menu/dialog for changing it, giving the user the choice?
> >>>
> >>> regards,
> >>> inthane
> >>> ? For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and 
> >>> Links
> >>> to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
> >>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >>> ? to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming
> >>> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
> >>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >>> From: "John covici" <covici@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:49 PM
> >>> Subject: Web Page Editor for the Blind
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> >I wonder if it would work with hardware speech at all since the speech
> >>> > and the sound may get out of sync?  Ever test this?
> >>> >
> >>> > on Wednesday 10/10/2007 dusty bray(dusty_bray@xxxxxxxxxxx) wrote
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Hi everybody,
> >>> > >
> >>> > > i$,1rym looking for people to evaluate the Web page editor that
> >>> > > i$,1rym starting and give some feedback.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > i$,1rym incorporating some cool features into this program that i 
> >>> > > hope
> >>> > > will allow blind users to easily create content-rich Web pages.
> >>> > > i$,1rym especially excited about the mathematical expression 
> >>> > > editor.
> >>> > > And i think you$,1ryll enjoy some of the other surprises i$,1ryve
> >>> > > added.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > This application also introduces a new concept for quickly
> >>> > > differentiating between controls in the editor$,1rys interface. In
> >>> > > applications designed for sighted users, components are visually
> >>> > > distinct: buttons appear raised, text boxes appear inset, and each 
> >>> > > item
> >>> > > differs in some way that suggests its intended function. Page 
> >>> > > Designer
> >>> > > achieves this effect auditorily. The application plays programmatic
> >>> > > sounds in parallel with voice output to quickly identify both an
> >>> > > object$,1rys type and its value. So rather than speaking "OK 
> >>> > > button",
> >>> > > the editor speaks "OK" and plays a popping sound at the same moment,
> >>> > > effectively saving half the number of syllables. Textboxes are
> >>> > > associated with a tapping sound; picture boxes are accompanied by 
> >>> > > the
> >>> > > sound of a camera shutter; the volume of a radio button$,1rys sound
> >>> > > varies depending its selection state.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Visit this link to download the application:
> >>> > > http://here-i-am.sourceforge.net/downloads/Here-I-Am_Page-Designer1.zip
> >>> > > The executable is named here-i-am_page-designer.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Please have patience with it.  This is only a beta version of the
> >>> > > program.  Also, the interface is very different and takes some 
> >>> > > getting
> >>> > > used to.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > i hate making concessions for JAWS, but i$,1ryve changed the
> >>> > > navigation keys to ensure my program doesn$,1ryt conflict.  As 
> >>> > > before,
> >>> > > the navigation model arranges content into a hierarchy with parent 
> >>> > > nodes
> >>> > > corresponding to higher levels of abstraction and child nodes
> >>> > > corresponding to lower levels of abstraction. To see more details of 
> >>> > > an
> >>> > > object, press spacebar. If at any point you becomes lost, pressing
> >>> > > Escape will move the selection up one level of abstraction, 
> >>> > > revealing a
> >>> > > "bigger picture".
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Unfortunately, this program is still far from the screen reader i
> >>> > > envision.  This is just a self-voicing application, and the objects 
> >>> > > do
> >>> > > not correspond to actual objects on the screen, so it probably lacks
> >>> > > much of the functionality to which you may be accustomed.  But i 
> >>> > > feel
> >>> > > like i$,1rym slowly getting closer.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Hope you enjoy it,
> >>> > >
> >>> > > dusty.......
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > _________________________________________________________________
> >>> > > Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger 
> >>> > > Caf,Ai.
> >>> > > Stop by today.
> >>> > > http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline<html>
> >>> > > <head>
> >>> > > <style>
> >>> > > .hmmessage P
> >>> > > {
> >>> > > margin:0px;
> >>> > > padding:0px
> >>> > > }
> >>> > > body.hmmessage
> >>> > > {
> >>> > > FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
> >>> > > FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma
> >>> > > }
> >>> > > </style>
> >>> > > </head>
> >>> > > <body class='hmmessage'>
> >>> > > Hi everybody,<br><br>i$,1rym looking for people to evaluate the Web
> >>> > > page editor that i$,1rym starting and give some
> >>> > > feedback.<br><br>i$,1rym incorporating some cool features into this
> >>> > > program that i hope will allow blind users to easily create 
> >>> > > content-rich
> >>> > > Web pages.&nbsp; i$,1rym especially excited about the mathematical
> >>> > > expression editor.&nbsp; And i think you$,1ryll enjoy some of the
> >>> > > other surprises i$,1ryve added.<br><br>This application also
> >>> > > introduces a new concept for quickly differentiating between 
> >>> > > controls in
> >>> > > the editor$,1rys interface. In applications designed for sighted
> >>> > > users, components are visually distinct: buttons appear raised, text
> >>> > > boxes appear inset, and each item differs in some way that suggests 
> >>> > > its
> >>> > > intended function. Page Designer achieves this effect auditorily. 
> >>> > > The
> >>> > > application plays programmatic sounds in parallel with voice output 
> >>> > > to
> >>> > > quickly identify both an object$,1rys type and its value. So rather
> >>> > > than speaking "OK button", the editor speaks "OK" and plays a 
> >>> > > popping
> >>> > > sound at the same moment, effectively saving half the number of
> >>> > > syllables. Textboxes are associated with a tapping sound; picture 
> >>> > > boxes
> >>> > > are accompanied by the sound of a camera shutter; the volume of a 
> >>> > > radio
> >>> > > button$,1rys sound varies depending its selection 
> >>> > > state.<br><br>Visit
> >>> > > this link to download the application:&nbsp;
> >>> > > http://here-i-am.sourceforge.net/downloads/Here-I-Am_Page-Designer1.zip<br>The
> >>> > > executable is named here-i-am_page-designer.<br><br>Please have 
> >>> > > patience
> >>> > > with it.&nbsp; This is only a beta version of the program.&nbsp; 
> >>> > > Also,
> >>> > > the interface is very different and takes some getting used 
> >>> > > to.<br><br>i
> >>> > > hate making concessions for JAWS, but i$,1ryve changed the 
> >>> > > navigation
> >>> > > keys to ensure my program doesn$,1ryt conflict.&nbsp; As before, 
> >>> > > the
> >>> > > navigation model arranges content into a hierarchy with parent nodes
> >>> > > corresponding to higher levels of abstraction and child nodes
> >>> > > corresponding to lower levels of abstraction. To see more details of 
> >>> > > an
> >>> > > object, press spacebar. If at any point you becomes lost, pressing
> >>> > > Escape will move the selection up one level of abstraction, 
> >>> > > revealing a
> >>> > > "bigger picture".<br><br>Unfortunately, this program is still far 
> >>> > > from
> >>> > > the screen reader i envision.&nbsp; This is just a self-voicing
> >>> > > application, and the objects do not correspond to actual objects on 
> >>> > > the
> >>> > > screen, so it probably lacks much of the functionality to which you 
> >>> > > may
> >>> > > be accustomed.&nbsp; But i feel like i$,1rym slowly getting
> >>> > > closer.<br><br>Hope you enjoy it,<br><br>dusty.......<br><br><br 
> >>> > > /><hr
> >>> > > />Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger
> >>> > > Caf,Ai. <a
> >>> > > href='http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline'
> >>> > > target='_new'>Stop by today!</a></body>
> >>> > > </html>
> >>> > -- 
> >>> > Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
> >>> > How do
> >>> > you spend it?
> >>> >
> >>> >         John Covici
> >>> >         covici@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'カ翰学ョf渇旛jxハ恭・xjリカ淌 ュ迥ヒ「ク・嘯カ・nX
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
> >> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
> >
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at 
> > http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >
> > 
> 
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at 
> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 

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