Re: Vinux Python Fruit Basket Example; was Re: iPhone development
- From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 20:42:45 -0400
Thanks Don!
On Oct 12, 2010, at 8:13 PM, Don Marang wrote:
> I for one really appreciate all of the efforts put into the Fruit Basket
> examples. I started with the Visual Basic example, which also provides a
> great introduction to Visual Studio. Well some of that might be considered
> part of the Visual Studio 2005/2008 JAWS Scripts. No matter, they fit well
> together.
>
> This family of examples points out very vivedely the differences vetween the
> many languages and show how to get started. I think it is very valuable!
>
> I am not sure there is much to say or do regarding porting a Fruit Basket
> Python example for Vinux. Just a few paragraphs might be enough. First,
> Python 2.6 and all of the necessary libraries are included and installed into
> every Vinux installation. Even the smallest, Vinux 3.0 Libra CD edition,
> available at vinux.org.uk. There is nothing needed or to be configured for
> basic Python development!
>
> Just copying and unzipping the Windows Python Fruit Basket example requires
> no modifications. Just run the program with the python command in a terminal
> window.
>
> python py_fruit.py
>
> The python program can be run directly from the command line in a terminal
> window in gnome with the following small modifications.
>
> 1. Add the following at the very top of the py_fruit.py file to load the
> correct interpreter:
> #!/usr/bin/env python
>
> 2. Change permissions on the file to at least allow execution.
>
> chmod +x py_fruit.py
>
> 3. Although the differences in line endings between Windows and Linux do not
> seem to matter to the python interpreter, it does create problems for that
> first line to load the interpreter. There may be an easier way, but I
> installed an additional utility package to convert between line endings.
>
> sudo aot-get update
> sudo apt-get install tofrodos
>
> Now convert the file (strips off carriage returns):
> fromdos py_fruit.py
>
> 4. Run the python program.
>
> ./py_fruit.py
>
> The program runs perfectly and is fully accessible with one exception. When
> the program dialog is first displayed, it seems to not be focused on any
> control. It does not properly announce fields or Tab around at first. I
> found that if I hit one of the dialog accelerators, like Alt + f, it gets
> proper focus and everything works perfect. Is there a statement that can be
> added to set the focus on creation? Perhaps the statement is not needed in
> Windows or works differently.
>
> Don Marang
>
> There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of any real
> substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am working
> on things that matter.
> Dean Kamen
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:37 PM
> To: "programmingblind" <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: iPhone development
>
>> I agree, and have been hoping for Gnome and OS X samples for a while. As
>> mentioned in the direct email between us, I think there are samples written
>> in cross platform languages and GUI toolkits that probably could be ported
>> without much difficulty by someone familiar with those other platforms.
>> For example, the wxPython sample at
>> http://EmpowermentZone.com/py_fruit.zip
>>
>> would probably run under Vinux if an appropriate "sha-bang line" were
>> inserted at the top of the .py file. If wxPython is not bundled with Vinux,
>> then it would be helpful if the documentation for that fruit basket sample
>> explain how to install it. All the fruit basket samples have free licenses,
>> so anyone can use them as the basis for a port without seeking permission
>> first.
>>
>> Jamal
>>
>>
>> On 10/11/2010 3:56 PM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>>> I do still think that an OSX and iOS FB example or two would be really
>>> helpful.
>>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
>>>
>>>> It sounds to me like whoever that person is, he or she has not been truly
>>>> serious about contributing a fruit basket program. On the present web
>>>> site of the project
>>>> http://FruitBasket.QuantumMyst.com
>>>>
>>>> the purpose of the project is explained and there is a link to the
>>>> specific criteria for a fruit basket program. For even easier reference,
>>>> I am pasting the text of that file below.
>>>>
>>>> While the current organization of the page may not be optimal, it is not
>>>> difficult to follow. There are clearly program samples that do not use
>>>> the unified code approach, and as mentioned, the criteria (pasted below)
>>>> makes no mention of code structure.
>>>>
>>>> Jamal
>>>>
>>>> [F[From the link entitled "Fruit Basket Demo criteria,
>>>> "]
>>>>
>>>> hello friends,
>>>>
>>>> On the Blind Programming list (www.blindprogramming.com), we developed
>>>> specifications for a sample program with a graphical user interface (GUI)
>>>> that could be implemented in various languages. It became known as a
>>>> fruit basket program. The purpose is to help teach people how to code a
>>>> GUI program in a particular language. Someone considering the language
>>>> can examine the code and evaluate the syntax and other development steps
>>>> involved based on his or her own knowledge, skills, and preferences. By
>>>> running the program, one can also make observations as an end-user,
>>>> evaluating such aspects as the size, speed, and accessibility of the
>>>> program.
>>>>
>>>> The specifications for a fruit basket program are as follows:
>>>> 1. The program is a GUI interface, or the equivalent with at least an edit
>>>> box, list box, and two buttons.
>>>> 2. The user can type the name of a fruit, e.g., apple, in the edit box.
>>>> 3. When the Add button is activated, the fruit is copied into the list box
>>>> and the edit box is cleared to be ready for another entry.
>>>> 4. When the Delete button is activated, the currently focused fruit in the
>>>> list box, or basket, is removed.
>>>> 5. For accessibility, static labels should be associated with the edit box
>>>> and list box, since these controls do not have captions like buttons.
>>>> 6. Keyboard users will also appreciate a unique hot key for each control.
>>>> 7. Making Add the default button allows a fruit to be added by simply
>>>> pressing Enter after typing its name.
>>>> 8. An error message alerts the user if Add is pressed without a fruit in
>>>> the edit box or Delete is pressed without a fruit in the list box.
>>>>
>>>> ** Important** please! annotate your program files, make text copies if
>>>> there not readable as such in there native format, add notes on easy to
>>>> find and use applications for compiling the project if you can and include
>>>> the text files, project files, and an compiled executable for your version
>>>> of the Fruit Basket Demo Project, in a zipped file for uploading to the
>>>> site.
>>>>
>>>> thank you, Inthaneelf, Jamal Mazrui, James Homme, Eunice Clicker, and
>>>> everyone else who have contributed to the fruit basket demo project.
>>>>
>>>> On 10/11/2010 10:21 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>>>>> Jamal et al,
>>>>>
>>>>> I did not say that the single source file approach to some of the Fruit
>>>>> Basket programs is essential to their value, I'm just a little frustrated
>>>>> trying to find someone to port the baskets to a GNU/Linux, Gnome based
>>>>> system. We have a call for volunteers out in all of our international
>>>>> locales and in the US asking for help in this porting but we've no takers
>>>>> and the one person we did have was stopped by her professor because he
>>>>> found the code to be oddly organized.
>>>>>
>>>>> If someone can write up a few paragraphs describing in general terms what
>>>>> FB is and why it is important, I'll get it up onto the FSF web site as
>>>>> soon as I can. If you don't look at www.fsf.org much, you won't,
>>>>> therefore, be able to see how rapidly we are improving it and an
>>>>> accessibility section is under way but, except for our original
>>>>> statement, still not there but will be soon. Anyone who wants to write
>>>>> articles about FLOSS at on GNU/Linux platforms (it's ok if they also run
>>>>> on Windows or Mac but they must also work as well on free operating
>>>>> systems) should write to me off-line to discuss topics of interest and
>>>>> how best to present them.
>>>>>
>>>>> If anyone out there wants to help port FB to a Gnome desktop, I can send
>>>>> them a pretty good computer that they can keep as their own once they
>>>>> complete some subsection of FB in Gnome desktop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently, from Gnome Foundation, Linux Foundation, FSF and elsewhere,
>>>>> the absolute highest priority is that we work with Gnome 3 as soon as it
>>>>> ships. This requires that we make a major change to DBus which means that
>>>>> it's really "under-the-hood" system hacking and lots of regression
>>>>> testing to make sure that Orca and other AT for Gnome weren't broken by
>>>>> one of these new changes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, any help would be greatly appreciated. Getting a free computer in
>>>>> the bargain should also alleviate fears of damaging one's main machine by
>>>>> polluting it with a GNU/Linux distro.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lastly, I will pay for shipping out of pocket for the computer in the US
>>>>> but I need to ask that anyone outside the country pay for shipping and
>>>>> whatever customs charges come with taking receipt of a desktop computer.
>>>>>
>>>>> HH,
>>>>> cdh
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: The computer cannot be shipped until 10/25 or so as it is in my house
>>>>> in Florida and no one will be there until the twenty-fifth of this month.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:27 AM, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is absolutely nothing in the criteria for a fruit basket program
>>>>>> that says UI and other code need to be mixed. That is a design choice
>>>>>> that some have made, but there are other samples, e.g., Visual Studio
>>>>>> projects, where UI and other code is separated. So, those folks should
>>>>>> be encouraged to submit programs that meet the criteria and separate the
>>>>>> code and files however they think is best. The criteria specify how the
>>>>>> dialog should behave, not how the underlying code should be structured.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jamal
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/10/2010 2:30 PM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>>>>>>> Thanks Ken.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hadn't heard of Appcelerator but I'll look around for it and see what
>>>>>>> I may be able to learn about it. It would certainly be convenient to get
>>>>>>> iPhone and Android all in one project. How accessible is it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know that Fruit Basket is intended to show blind people how to do UI
>>>>>>> without sighted help. I was just mentioning that I don't do a lot of UI
>>>>>>> stuff as my UI ideas tend to suck and someone always needs to jump in
>>>>>>> and help me out before shipping a program.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem with our friends in Venezuela didn't object to a blind
>>>>>>> person writing UI code, they didn't like the entire program being placed
>>>>>>> in a single source file as that would make for a lot of difficulty
>>>>>>> working on multi-hacker projects and generally more difficult to find
>>>>>>> any specific item.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blind people should learn how to make GUI code but I am still willing to
>>>>>>> bet that the marketing department will want things rearranged as this is
>>>>>>> the issue even with sighted hackers. Personally, I think emacs has the
>>>>>>> greatest UI in the world so the average man on the street thinks I am
>>>>>>> probably seriously mentally ill.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would like to see FB for Gnome and for the Apple operating systems but
>>>>>>> no volunteers have come forward yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cdh
>>>>>>> On Oct 10, 2010, at 1:39 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually you can also use Appcelerator and when using it under Mac you
>>>>>>>> can actually code for IPhone and Android both at the same time.
>>>>>>>> Remember though the fruit basket was originally designed to show how
>>>>>>>> to make UI for blind people. Using a sited person to do it really
>>>>>>>> doesn’t count. That is why I have not done one already.
>>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>> *From:* programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> <mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Chris
>>>>>>>> Hofstader
>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:09 PM
>>>>>>>> *To:* programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: iPhone development
>>>>>>>> To develop iPhone apps you are almost forced to use the xcode
>>>>>>>> development system that ships with every Macintosh. I know a few blind
>>>>>>>> people who use it with pretty good success. The hardest part, of
>>>>>>>> course, is arranging controls in your UI as there is no accessible way
>>>>>>>> to do this.
>>>>>>>> When coding for iPhone, I use emacspeak as my editor and xcode as an
>>>>>>>> IDE and get help from a sightie for layout issues.
>>>>>>>> I thought of trying to find someone to help make a "fruit basket" for
>>>>>>>> OSX and iOS but haven't had any takers so far. I'm not even sure that
>>>>>>>> OSX or iOS permit putting all of the UI code in the same file as the
>>>>>>>> rest of the program which is how many of the Fruit Basket programs are
>>>>>>>> designed. Also, while it's possible to write iOS code in C or C++, for
>>>>>>>> all intents and purposes, you are forced to use Objective C, an odd
>>>>>>>> language that only Apple supports as far as I can tell. So, a fruit
>>>>>>>> basket program for a single language (Objective C is preferred for OSX
>>>>>>>> as well) might be something we can find someone to do. Of course, if
>>>>>>>> you embed a WebKit control in your iOS program, you then need to
>>>>>>>> follow the WCAG guidelines for the content you expose using it so
>>>>>>>> JavaScript and some other things become important but doing an FB
>>>>>>>> program would be silly as it is all described nicely in the WCAG and
>>>>>>>> other W3C standards documents.
>>>>>>>> I had thought I had a student in Venezuela who was going to make Fruit
>>>>>>>> Basket ports for GNU/Linux systems running the Gnome desktop. She is
>>>>>>>> taking a class called "Computer Languages" which, when I took it back
>>>>>>>> in 1980 or so, taught us 13 languages in 13 weeks and, as I saw it, it
>>>>>>>> was a pretty major waste of time and, to this day, I've never seen
>>>>>>>> anyone ask for Snobol/V, Wafter, Spitbol and a few of the others we
>>>>>>>> had to learn back in the dark ages. Our Venezuelan student's professor
>>>>>>>> liked the idea of the Fruit Basket for Gnome until he found files that
>>>>>>>> contained the UI and the rest of the program as he thinks it is bad
>>>>>>>> software engineering practice. Our student friend is doing all console
>>>>>>>> programs instead and we're still looking for a volunteer to do the FB
>>>>>>>> port.
>>>>>>>> I do not find asking for sighted help on UI layout to be a problem for
>>>>>>>> me. When I could see perfectly well, I made sucky user interfaces that
>>>>>>>> someone would need to rearrange in a manner that the marketing people
>>>>>>>> approved of. So, as far as I go, UI layout always required asking for
>>>>>>>> help and I can usually find someone to spiff up my programs pretty
>>>>>>>> efficiently.
>>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 2010, at 4:48 PM, Michael Taboada (AI5HF) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>> I was wondering if anyone knew of an accessible way to develop for the
>>>>>>>> iPhone.
>>>>>>>> I could use apple's software, or I could use a third party software
>>>>>>>> solution.
>>>>>>>> I am running windows.
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> -Michael.
>>>>>>>> AI5HF
>>>>>>>> http://mtgames.org/
>>>>>>>> http://u4u.be/
>>>>>>>> Skype: lilmike2
>>>>>>>> Gmail: ai5hf.lilmike@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:ai5hf.lilmike@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> msn: ai5hf@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ai5hf@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> PC details:
>>>>>>>> Intel quad core 2.66 ghz; 4 gb duel channel ddr2 ram; 1 TB harddrive.
>>>>>>>> "The songs of the dead are the lamentations of the living." --
>>>>>>>> Christopher Paolini, Eldest.
>>>>>>>> "A world that contained a creature as amazing as that bumblebee was a
>>>>>>>> world he wanted to live in." -- Christopher Paolini, Brisingr.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
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