Re: Team Excellence Award Winner

And how do you plan to do this? All I said was that I am in college for a cs degree to become a programmer. I would love to know what "unrealistic views" I am filled with. I know my blindness can limit me and, if I absolutely cannot find a way to adapt something so I can do it, too bad for me and I get on with my life. Thanks to a wonderful mother, who raised myself and my legally blind sister as a single parent, I am a second lieutenant in the Civil Air Patrol, am on the Honor Guard team for CAP where we spin/throw rifles to each other; I play airsoft (a bit like paintball), ride a bike, play guitar for a worship team on campus, and lead a perfectly normal life. I know that, realistically, I cannot walk into the buffet-style cafeteria and serve myself. I simply present my ID card to the person on duty to have it scanned (to subtract one meal from my weekly meal plan), then wait while that person goes and gets someone to help me through the line and to find an empty table. I know that if I tried to walk around campus without my white cane, no matter how well I think I know it, I would soon find some unexpected obstacle and be sorry I didn't have the cane; I am fine with this and consider my cane no different from someone putting on glasses to correct vision. (In its way, does a cane not do the same thing") I would be lost without my BrailleNote and am not ashamed to admit that I rely on something other than myself and a slate and stylus. Need I go on? Please tell me if I misunderstood you, but your message seemed rather clear. If you want any more information do not hesitate to ask; I am happy to share, but still fail to see how I am unrealistic because I have never been exposed to the real world. I would say that running a CAP squadron for over a year is pretty real, wouldn't you? In CAP there is no room for putting people on pedestals just because they can do something. Sure people have written articles about the blind cadet and such, but I always try to discourage this and absolutely do not let any of it make me feel like I am above anyone else in the program. CAP has taught me an incredible amount, and it is a good exposure to the "real world". http://www.cap.gov for more info. 

Have a great day,
Alex


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:25:01 -0800
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
At this point you're a case study, which I will use to 
tentatively prove my
hypothesis that blind children are filled with unrealistic views 
of the
world, and because they haven't seen most of the world outside of 
their
family units and local community, they don't have a true 
appreciation of the

reality they are missing out on.



Matthew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Parks" <mehgcap@xxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner




I have been blind since birth.  I can see some, but I use
braille, a screen reader, a cane (hopefully a dog next spring)
and so on.  This has not stopped me from doing anything--even as
I write this I am getting ready to do some final debugging of a
blackjack java program I had to write for a class.



Have a great day,
Alex



----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:32:11 -0800
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner



Alex, how old were you when you lost your sight?



Matthew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Parks" <mehgcap@xxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner




I agree, Rick.  Some things are not going to happen for blind
people--if I get on a plane and the pilot is blind, I am most
certainly getting right back off.  However, I know many blind
people who are very successful at whatever they do, from running
a vending machine business to hiking the Apalation (sorry for the
spelling) Trail.  I am blind and want a degree in computer
science so I can work for HW or a similar company.  Just because
someone cannot see means nothing, especially in this age of such
powerful and "smart" technology.  As I said, some things are out
of the reach of people with no sight but in 50 years.  Who
knows? Since this is supposed to be a list about programming,
though, can we please get it back on track and not have 20+
messages a day on this topic?



Have a great day,
Alex



----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Harmon" <rickharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:04:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner



Matthew,



It seems as if you aren't willing to give someone qualified to do

their job

a chance if they are blind?  I hope this isn't so since you are

blind

yourself.  I'd hate to see someone discriminate against you soely

because of

your being blind.  I know I don't want to be discriminated

against soley

because of my being blind.  I'm not sure if your just trying to

prove a

point or your really meaning what you've said in your posts.  You

said you

wouldn't have a blind lawyer and now a blind doctor either.

Please explain.



If someone is qualified to do their job then it's simply not fair

to say you

wouldn't allow them to do their job for you based on the fact

they are

blind.



Thanks,



Rick




--
Visit my webpage and podcast feed at:
http://www.blind-geek-zone.net
and my web Blog at:
http://blind-geek-zone.blogspot.com/
Join the BGZ mailing list by sending a blank email message to:
blind_geek_zone-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
and put subscribe in the subject line.



Contact info:



Email - rickharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx & rharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Skype - rharmon928
MSN - rharmon928@xxxxxxxxxxx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner




In your own opinion you're good.  What objective measures or

assessments can

you show for your claims? My point is that you are making the

same mistake

as those who claim blind people can make websites as good as

sighted people.

They are basing their arguments on personal anecdotal experience.

I'm sorry

but if I walked into a medical center and discovered that the

person helping

my elderly parent learn to control her Parkinson's related

movement disorder

is a blind person, I'm going somewhere else.  I want someone who

will be able

to make an educated comprehensive assessment based on their own

assessment

of the situation and not have to go through someone else to

convey to them

the patient's physical movements.



Matthew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner




This entire thread is ridiculous.  Loads of sighted people can't

design a

decent Web site.  Just when did it become necessary for each and

every blind

person to perform above the standard of the best sighted designer

or

anything else for that matter.  That is a pretty high standard

and just below

God.



Loads of blind programmers and Web authors can out design and out

code many

thousands maybe millions of Web pages out there.  Why isn't that

enough? If

one excels for any reason at any level let us celebrate that.



I am a Physiotherapist.  I am darn good at rehabilitating

acquired brain

injuries, I suck at respiratory conditions and don't much care.

This does

not negate my value.  Admittedly I haven't won any awards either.



Congratulations and thank you to the extent I, as a blind person

can benefit

from any reflected glory.



Now can we possibly return to the regularly scheduled programme?
Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada
DLeavens@xxxxxxx
Skype DaleLeavens
Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear

habitat.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Léonie Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:14 PM
Subject: RE: Team Excellence Award Winner




Matthew,



You seem to be suggesting that a VI person can't succeed, or rise

to

eminence in their field, in a sighted world.  I sincerely hope

that you're

suggesting nothing of the kind, but perhaps you'd be good enough

to clarify

your scepticism?




Regards,
Léonie.



-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of

Matthew2007

Sent: 29 November 2007 16:30
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner



In an effort to take your anecdotal post and bring it to life,

name these

people.  I want to try to find them and research the particulars

of their

situations.  After all, there is a nice big picture from 2003 of

that moron

in the white house standing on a freight carrier next to a sign

stating

"victory." We all know what this picture leads us to believe, but

the truth

is very different.



Matthew
---- Original Message -----
From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner




*taking a deep breath*, *counting to ten*,



*reciting mantra's to calm my spirit*



teddy, one doesn't become a professional foot ball player in the

NFL by

being better than the worst foot ball player, or by being even

with the

average players despite his having only half of his right

foot...



one does not become a respected and well paid attorney by being

just

better than someone who knows nothing about the intricacies of

the law,

nor a professional class skier by being equal to sighted average

skiers,

despite the fact that the gentleman is both blind and a double

amputee...



one does not earn the title of fencing master, even sighted, by

only

fencing with those who are average with a foil, or by fencing

only with

those who are blind, even if one is blind themselves..



these are the types of people I am talking about, they are

masters of

there fields, despite there disadvantages, not over those who

don't or

haven't learned how, I'm talking about people with distinct

disadvantages

that makes there choice of work seem ridiculous to many, and

force the

world to recognize that if one wishes to, and is willing to do

what is

required to accomplish it, that they can be a top gun in there

field, no

matter what...



quit with the f...  reeking you can't, because if one of us

wishes to put

forth the effort, and the time, we can, period end of quote!



inthane
.  For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful

Programs, and

Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,

visit me

at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
.  to be able to view a simple programming project in several

programming

languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com



----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner




Oh yes that could be true.  There are sighted persons that don't

even know



how to use a computer.  So we can say that we as web designers

are better

at web design than them.  But who cares that we can be better

than those

sighted that don't know too many things?
We should be better comparing us with the medium-skilled sighted

web

designer....  at least.
But unfortunately a medium-skilled web designer might know to

create

images, maybe a little Flash, some Javascript, and nobody will

care that

he doesn't put a document type declaration at the top of his web

pages,

or that his pages won't be W3C compliant.



If you will check the Google's web page with the W3C's html

validator, it



will tell you:



Failed validation, 30 Errors



So...  of course W3C's validator is not important at all,

because Google's



page is very accessible, very simple, and with a design....

better said

almost without any design.




Octavian



----- Original Message -----
From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner




teddy that is far from what I meant, my computer locked up on my
previous reply, so I'll take my time since I seem to have a

habit of

overloading my machine, and I'll get back on this later, if I

don't

decide it doesn't warrant a reply when I cool down..



I can tell you about a number of "handicapped" people that have

mastered



areas that are thought of as "sighted and fit" only areas as

well or

better than most of there "whole and healthy" fellow humans



laters,
inthane
.  For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful

Programs, and

Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,

visit

me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
.  to be able to view a simple programming project in several

programming



languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com



----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner




Oh yes, that's true, and sometimes the screen reader doesn't

even show

us the correct colors, and even if it show us that 2 words come

one

after another in the same line, it doesn't tell us that maybe

the first



is a static word in a iframe element and the other one is a text
written dynamicly by a javascript code, and it might scroll

slowly up

or down becoming very confusing for us at a page refresh.



I think we shouldn't fight for beeing what we can't be.  Oh yes,

there

are handicapped people without a leg that participate in

different

sports, showing that they can do more, but we all know that they

will

never be equal to a healthy person, no matter how good or bad he

is.



And let's not forget that the productivity of the work is also
important.  What we can do would have a very low value if we

would be

able to do it in a much longer period than a sighted designer.



Octavian



----- Original Message -----
From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner




which except for rare occasions is not practical Marlon, since

we live



in a sighted world, and the majority of folks that we are going

to

need to deal with are sighted, I'm sorry that you have no

experience

in the visual view of things, this is one area where I have an
advantage.



but...  you can't avoid the visual world, it's out there, it's

the

majority, and so you might as well learn the tricks for dealing

with

it, use the standards and templates  when and where you can, and

do

your best to adapt.



the best description for trying to convey sight to a person that

has

never had it, was spoken by a blind dude that never had sight in

his

life,



its the description I use now a days, since I have found myself

often

trying to describe visual aspects to those who have never had

site.



one thing you should do if you haven't, go to a web site, keep
yourself at the top of the page, and turn on the invisible

cursor and

go up and down the page to see what it actually looks like, such

as,

the  that that instead of the vertical column that jaws presents

us

with, that its actually more like a message written in Braille,
including the navigation links which run from left to right

across the



page, not in the vertical column that is presented to us.



take care, and good luck,
inthane
.  For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful

Programs, and

Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,

visit



me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
.  to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com



----- Original Message -----
From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner




Hello folks,
Well I have never seen ...  so I have no a ...  let's call it

...

visual
standards so, although I can technically do it very well ...  I

can

not
plan, like imagine, build ...  a nice visual interface, because

I

don't
know what it is expected.  A quick example is I beleaved gfirmly

that

the windows explorer put the folder treeview in the top and the
listview below it, and I couldn't beleave when a guy tould me
naturally that the treeview was in the left and the listview was

in

the right!!!!
Similarly, because of the top down aproach most part of screen
readers
use to present web content, I have dificulties to imagine hwat
exactly
sighted people expect to see in a webpage or something like

this.

I can plan the components of the interface, but deciding * and
putting
* them in the more "apropriate" place or planning what would

happen

if
one changes their screen resolution or diicovering by teory how
browsers would react to it without testing is something very
different.
If I had been sighted (and lost my sight after the modern look

and

feel's I perhaps would be totally able to build interfaces based

on

the standards of what should be common to folks, but the only

thing I

can do for now is build an interface based on someone's
specifications.  And even then I will spend eforts trying to

build

something which belongs to a group of situations that I can't

imagine

very well ...  and, again, I wouldn't be able to test my own

work,

which seen something pretty nasty to any [programmer I know of

...

now
the point is: For sure many blind folks can do gui's, but they

will

feel more confortable and be more productive if they're doing
something which has not a visual result as its goal ...  which

should

be perfectly logical.
Thanks
Marlon



2007/11/28, jaffar <jaffar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:

Hi Jim.  Excellent news.  Congrats Jeff.  Just shows what, if

you

all will
forgive the pun, application will do for one, not to mention

hard

work and
determination, and the willingness to try.  Cheers!
----- Original Message -----
From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:42 PM
Subject: Team Excellence Award Winner





Hi All,
Where I consult, one of our fellow listers was on a team who won

a



very
prestigious award.  The team developed a highly visible web
application.
Jeff Fidler designed and coded the GUI interface for the site
using HTML,
CSS and Javascript.  He used Section 508 and W3C techniques and

the



sighted
people in the company rave about it.



I write this to urge anyone who thinks that someone who is blind
cannot
design Web interfaces well to keep on trying.  You can do it.



Jim



James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810



"Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can
change the
world.  Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret
Mead



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