Re: Team Excellence Award Winner

Ah well, I guess this just proves the point... You can't please everyone.

I really couldn't care less that my site isn't a 'competitive good web design 
made by a blind', because that was never my intention in the first place. 

A team would consist of two or more developers working on the coding for a 
project, or by taking responsibility for various tasks of that project to 
accomplish the goal as a whole. However, all developers, blind or otherwise, 
depend on user feedback to enhance the quality of their products. If an 
architect were to create a building, and asked someone with a mobility 
impairment whether they liked and considered the building suitable for their 
needs, would this then make the architect less of an architect? Would they have 
to be considered a team?

Moreover, if this hypothetical architect had no knowledge regarding the 
installation of plumbing, and thus relied on someone else to complete this 
task, or at the least, provide the knowledge necessary for him to complete the 
task, would this make him any less of an architect?

All developers have weaknesses in their knowledge and methodologies. The good 
ones however, take the extra time necessary to compensate for them by either 
learning how to overcome such, or by consulting those with the knowledge to 
help them do so. This does not degrade their status as a developer. Saying 
that, if you cannot do everything within a specific field, you are somehow 
proven to be substandard within that field, is ridiculous. It is impossible for 
any one person to know everything.

As far as my own site goes, I really had no intention of making it a statement 
for blind developers, or even making this a focus point for the site. Nor did I 
have any intention of creating a competitive blind site to compete with sites 
created by other blind developers. 

At first it was a learning experience, a place to try out new ideas and hone my 
skills in various web design techniques and languages. Within the last four 
years or so though, my goal has shifted to attracting more sighted visitors. My 
reason? Well, that's fairly easy actually... I'm really a bastard capitalist at 
heart, and the sighted market share is much wider than the blind one. 

As it now stands, the majority of my web traffic comes from sighted users. 
Also, the majority of services and downloads are also being used by sighted 
users. This is not because I prefer one over the other, but rather, because I 
did put so much time and effort into ensuring a good experience for both 
sighted and non-sighted users. 

For being a bastard though, I like to think at least that I'm a nice one...

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Octavian Rasnita 
  To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:14 AM
  Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


  See? I don't consider this a competitive good web design made by a blind.
  Your sight might look really nice, but if you needed much more time to create 
it, and then you need other sighted persons to check it now and then in order 
to be sure you didn't make any mistake, the result is not a web design made by 
the blind, but a design made in a team.

  And yes, as I said in a previous discussion on the list on the same subject, 
a blind person can be a part of a web design team.

  But if you are a part of a web designers team and you can't do everything, 
then you cannot be a web designer.

  Octavian

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Bryan Garaventa 
    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:27 PM
    Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


    Yes, true enough. The problem that I've come across repeatedly is that 
everything is relative, and you can't please everyone. 

    For instance, it took me a long time to get gutterstar.net to look visually 
appealing. My goal was to produce a site that was appealing to both sighted and 
non-sighted users, while preserving accessibility. The difficulty for myself 
though, was that I lost my site before the internet was ever around (well the 
localnet was around, but this was mainly bulletin boards...). I've never seen a 
web page of any sort, so when I was learning CSS and various layout methods, I 
needed visual feedback to notify me when I was making mistakes. Mistakes are 
easy to do with CSS, especially when layering and overlapping start to occur. 

    So, I would ask someone to check it out, and they would say "Oh wow! That's 
awesome!". That was great, it made me feel all fuzzy inside like I had actually 
done something worth while. Then, I would tell someone else about it, all proud 
of course, and they would report back "Why are all of your web pages that 
horrid brown color? It makes them look like... Well... You know..." And my 
first overreaction is "What the hell is wrong with JAWS! I checked the bloody 
colors when I wrote the damned thing..." and so on...

      Well, it took a lot of trial and error, but eventually I got the hang of 
it, and can now fairly accurately determine what the consequences of various 
code implementations will be. Unfortunately though, I really wouldn't have been 
able to get to this point if I hadn't received visual feedback during the 
learning process. 

      Being blind sucks, but it's a condition like any other. If visual 
feedback will aid me in accomplishing a task, I'll be the first one to seek it 
out. I've learned the hard way that being too proud to do so, is a lonely and 
fruitless occupation.


      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Octavian Rasnita 
      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:07 AM
      Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


      Yes I also like when the sighted or the blind have complaints, because 
most of the times I know what I need to change for making the site look better. 
But the problem is that sometimes the complaints sound like "Oh, but that page 
is not nice. Please make it to looke nicely. Can't you?", or "That stock chart 
has the lines too proximate, and I can't see them very clear", or "those 3 
charts with volumes and the other 2 indicators should be put in the same image 
below the main candlestick chart", and so on.

      Well, those charts are generated dynamicly, by the program, and by a 
program that was not made by me, because it would take a very long time just to 
make that program that generates the graphic, and I need just to change it in 
order to "look better", but I cannot see the distances between the lines or 
other things like that, (like a sighted person easily can), and I don't have 
the time for making studies about how to do that, because this is a very very 
small part of the job I need to do.

      I know that a blind person that stays at home the entire day in front of 
the computer, has the necessary time and power to study and make tests in order 
to do this kind of complicated things, but even in that case, they won't be 
able to do anything without having some sighted help for telling them how the 
result looks.



      Octavian

        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Bryan Garaventa 
        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:33 PM
        Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


        That's alright, I haven't actually received any complaints. If I ever 
do though, it simply indicates an area for improvement. I've always been open 
about this to my clients, and they appear to appreciate it.


          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Octavian Rasnita 
          To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
          Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:05 PM
          Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


          You cannot ignore the complaints if the complaints come from the 
customers, because they might choose to work with one of your competitors.

          And most of the times the sighted users don't have any complaints, 
but just don't like and just don't use a site that they don't like.

          Octavian

            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: Bryan Garaventa 
            To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
            Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:59 PM
            Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


            Hey, I'm rather pleased with the layout of gutterstar.net... I'm 
pretty sure the layout looks appealing, I know I've put enough work into it for 
me to believe this anyway... All I have to do is ignore the complaints?

              ----- Original Message ----- 
              From: Darragh Ó Héiligh 
              To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
              Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 12:22 PM
              Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner




              Quote:

                > Please tell us where can we see the web page made by that 
blind guy, and
                I
                > will tell you if a blind person can do it without sighted 
help. 
                > I've seen many messages on this list telling how cool web 
pages can a
                > blind
                >
                > do, with with no single example.
                >
                > Octavian
                >

              take a look at:
              www.nickykealy.com
              www.kenoheiligh.ie

              also look at a cached version of nvm.ie and digitaldarragh.com
              my own website is down at the moment as I'm restructuring it and 
the online version was getting in the way. 

              I'm by no means a designer on par with a sighted person but it 
can definitly be done.  it just takes a bit more determination.

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