Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader Question

Also, how soon they all seem to forget. A month or two ago there was another guy that came to the list with a project he was working on that had the same auditory icon concept. Many of the people on here questioned his project, questioned the usefulness of such a thing, called it useless. Turns out the people that were doing this were the same people that are calling this project great. Also as with any research project, there are going to be those people that are going to want to prove their hypothesis wrong. Let's just use the global warming thing as an example. I still say that natural language is the most efficient means of conveying information to a user. Here is why. With nothing more than an auditory icon of a stop sign. Think of it from the sense of a computer and it is trying to convey useful information on what just went wrong with your operating system. Is the sound of a car crashing going to say to you that kernel error number 35969754 just happened, or is your brain going to have to take that extra second to translate that sound into the natural language that brings meaning to that sound? The same concept applys with someone signing into MSN Messenger. When the sign in sound happens, you know that someone just signed in but you can't tell who. The exception people may be thinking is the different ringtones that we assign for different people on a cell phone. But, it does take the brain that extra time to associate the hells bells song is my mother in law because we have to translate that song into the natural language that is what we use every day. Granted auditory icon concepts do have their uses for people with cognitive disorders. But I am not sure the people with the types of cognitive disorders I am speaking of would be programming in Visual Studio 2005. I have been questioning this research because I do have a vested interest. I have family members that work for the Texas Mental Retardation center and they are always on the search for assistive technologies such as the auditory icon concept. I was just trying to get this project explained to me in a bit of salesman english because the mathematician speak is not selling me and I have seen this concept done before. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>

To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 6:36 AM
Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader Question


I too beg to differ on your behalf as you do contribute tons. Regarding intelligence, those who automatically discount another as unintelligent don't really know the meaning of intelligence and they figure that an IQ or GRE score is the one and only true measure of intelligence. Those of us who understand and adhere to the theory of types of multiple intelligences will more than likely think very differently. I wouldn't trust one of my best friends to do my paperwork, but I would certainly trust him to tear down my house and rebuilt it to exact specifications. I think people just hope you would present your opinions in a less combative way. I do on the other hand understand passion for one's opinion so understand your stance accordingly.

And yes you did keep me from baby sitting long enough for unexpected family members to decide to visit. Thanks,

Matthew
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader Question


Well yeah but that is because the first thing I get accused of is I am not smart enough to participate and I beg to differ. I am hearing how all of this can benefit the blind, how wonderful it will be once the research is done and I ask how will it benefit and I get made to feel like an idiot. Yet still no answers to my simple questions that are on everyone's minds. Surely they are doing the research for a reason other than just to tell the blind community how great it will be for us. That one has been done to us before. lol, there ya go and if it wasn't for me your wife would have already found you. Hope you had a good Thanksgiving. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader Question


Yeah, but you're asking more questions than an IRB. Let's just wait until he completes his research and you can then better determine whether or not you can toss it or put it to use. Under the majority of all research conditions it is not important the participant or person with passing interest know exactly how the research will ultimately be put to use.

By the way, for those wondering why I'm participating in this thread for this long, firstly, I'm nursing a bit of a thanksgiving hangover, secondly, its kinda interesting, and third, I'm trying to appear busy so I don't end up babysitting--but don't tell my wife.

Matthew
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader Question


Actually as far as the Mc Donald's thing goes. Mc Donald's had to put things like that on their menu because of lawsuits filed against them. So in that case they had to research things to find out what things they could add to the menu that people would buy. What items would provide the most effective way to come within the bounds of the lawsuit. These are the kinds of things I am asking. What benefit do they see their research being to blind people. What problems does it solve. How do they see the findings of their research effecting the common consumer. Can they sell the findings of their research to the companies looking for solutions. See that is the business I am in. I might just be a prospective benefactor of their research, so I want to know what problems it can solve for me. Yet all I have gotten is because I am not a mathematician I just would not understand. That is not a way to generate interest in your research. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader Question


You kinda contradicted yourself in the first 2 sentences below.

Nevertheless, I pretty much understand your point regarding individual differences, but you too are making the same mistake as John. You guys are taking a sample of 1 and applying the findings of this single sample to the entire population of blind individuals. Andreus is not basing his research on what John might or might not like, he is hoping to apply his findings to the majority of the target population, and he cannot do this by simply focusing on John's opinions. McDonald's knows they have no chance with vegetarians, yet they are not throwing in the towel but rather spending millions of dollars in research for most members of their population of food eaters on this planet.

Matthew
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader Question


Oh, I know that productivity definitely doesn't go down when I turn Winamp off. But now we have to consider just how great a benefit these sound schemes could provide, which I tried to allude to in the last sentence of my original post. Productivity be damned, I'm a musician and an avid music lover. I consciously sacrifice some productivity in order to enjoy music while I work. That takes the discussion into the realm of personal preferences and psychology, (for instance, while I know productivity is higher, I find myself generally less comfortable in my working environment if music is not present) so I'll not pull things too far that way on this list. The research certainly is intriguing and worthwhile, and users possibly playing music in the background shouldn't slow it up at all. It's just something I instantly thought of when I started reading this, since it's something I'd have to confront if ever presented with an idea like this. I thought it deserved a place on the table. Before I go...

"You might be interested in knowing that some research shows that while music may not redirect attention dramatically, listening to spoken words such as commercials and especially talk shows on the radio does interfere with human attention." NO radio for me. It's all off my hard drive, hence there're no commercials. I haven't researched this topic very thoroughly, I admit, but your info implies that this would not be as distracting, since it's all music and music the user is probably familiar with at that. Just thought it should be clarified, since I don't think this is uncommon, what with people's personal media libraries able to all fit on the tiniest of storage devices now.

JW

Matthew2007 wrote:
Interesting you mention computing when music is playing. I can't stand doing this as I cannot focus while my attention is constantly redirected from the task at hand to each different song on the radio. You might be interested in knowing that some research shows that while music may not redirect attention dramatically, listening to spoken words such as commercials and especially talk shows on the radio does interfere with human attention.

Regarding your comments on productivity, you might find it interesting to also run a little bit of a reversal design in that you might want to find a manner of assessing your productivity when listening to the radio for a month or so, then assess productivity for the following month without listening to the radio, then finally assessing productivity for the third month while listening to the radio. You might surprise yourself in that you might find you can focus much better as well as completing tasks much faster if you turn off the radio in order to not spread your pool of attention over multiple tasks rather than just a few tasks.

Matthew

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: Sonified Debugger vs. Screenreader Question


John Greer wrote:
"But Mat don't you want to program to Beethoven?"
Interesting you should put it like that, since that's been my overwhelming thought during the time I've been reading this thread. I don't know how the rest of you feel about other sounds in your computing environment, but I am rarely if ever working without music playing. A variety of other factors in my computing environment generate sound. One nice thing about the boring, droning speech synthesizers is that they do isolate themselves within a certain segment of my aural consciousness, allowing me to interpret what they're telling me without having to pick their cues out amongst from whatever my current soundscape might be. IN order for me to entertain the idea of using something that uses a lot of auxiliary "normal" sounds, I'd have to see more than a cursory potential spike in productivity.

JW
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