RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind programmers
- From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:43:04 -0400
Sent
Take care,
Sina
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John G
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 4:19 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
programmers
"...there was the virtual machine introspection stuff which was bit
for bit analysis, in memory, at real-time. There's actually a paper
on that one, if you'd like."
I would be interested in the paper, Sina.
Kind regards,
John
At 19:20 10/04/2011, you wrote:
>A shell exploit about six months ago, maybe a year. Closer to a year actually.
>
>And then op code by op code for a hypervisor, namely Xen, around
>their 3.2 3.3 versions, and mainly in their page manager.
>
>Then there was the virtual machine introspection stuff which was bit
>for bit analysis, in memory, at real-time. There's actually a
>paper on that one, if you'd like.
>
>Let's see, and then there was some malware analysis with a
>friend/colleague of mine, but that was mainly him, and I was just having
>fun.
>
>Oh yes, and stepping through some code for a friend's engineering
>project, byte for byte; however, that was an 8-bit, then a 16-bit
>processor, so if that counts, then wonderful.
>
>Oh, and last year/semester I wrote a compiler, so I guess that counts.
>
>I also collaborated on a paper to automatically prevent every single
>possible return oriented programming hack/technique by
>modifying the compiler, namely LLVM, to rewrite all generated op
>codes without using a ret, so as to prevent alignment errors along
>any kind of boundary, be they logical, page, byte, or otherwise;
>such that unprivileged jumps can't actually escalate themselves.
>The researcher on that one then used this technique to recompile the
>entire kernel into a running system, think they settled on BSD
>because of issues with Klang back then, using that protection
>technique. That's actually a great paper, and I'd recommend it to
>anyone.
>
>But, *shrug*, it doesn't come up all that often. I'm going to go
>back to writing speech recognition code into a computer vision
>algorithm for Android because HCI is way more fun!
>
>Bye for now
>
>Take care,
>Sina
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 12:40 PM
>To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
>blind programmers
>
>I think you might find it was more recent than you think judging by what
>Sina has been doing.
>
>Ken
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>Coale
>Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 12:27 PM
>To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>programmers
>
>Stop being ignorant, Sina. You seem to be quite fond of the straw man.
>So please, stop changing my words.
>
>First of all, I agree that computer programmers need to understand the
>basics. I never once said they didn't. I never once said that low-level
>was bad. So if your whole point is that "understanding low-level is
>important", then I agree and nobody is this thread thus far disagreed
>with that claim. So then, given that, what is your point that makes me
>wrong?
>
>Sina, when was the last time you wrote a program from scratch using ONLY
>A HEX-EDITOR?
>
>On 4/10/2011 5:40 AM, Sina Bahram wrote:
> > Well, you definitely proved that I didn't need the other 65%, since your
>message summed up exactly what my impression of the
> > discussion was.
> >
> > And yes, I do feel it's important. Not crucial, or even necessary to be
>successful, but most definitely extremely important.
> >
> > Understanding the fundamentals is something that gets ignored day in and
>day out.
> >
> > Take care,
> > Sina
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>Coale
> > Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 10:36 PM
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>programmers
> >
> > How kind of you to join, master. Can you tell me who said that low-level
> > was NOT important to know and understand? You admittedly stated that you
> > ignored 65% of the messages, but then tell everyone to take Ken's side?
> > Are you kidding me? You admit that you don't know what the argument
> > (friendly argument) is about, yet you still pick a side? Come on now...
> >
> > Ken stated that --being able to write a program in pure machine code (no
> > compiler or assembler)-- is important. I disagreed saying that it is not
> > important. Knowing low-level concepts (like I pointed out earlier.. how
> > the processor works, operating system design, etc.) is definitely
> > important. Writing a program in pure machine code is an unnecessary
> > skill, not an important one.
> >
> > On 4/9/2011 7:27 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
> >> I haven't read 65% of the messages in this thread, frankly because the
>SNR is far too low.
> >>
> >> So can you guys please just listen to Ken on this one?
> >>
> >> low level is important to know and understand. End of conversation.
> >>
> >> Now go do something fun. It's Saturday night.
> >>
> >> Take care,
> >> Sina
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 8:06 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>programmers
> >>
> >> I think we are just going to have to disagree on this. While I doubt
>anyone
> >> is going to rush out and write a bit of Machine language I think it is
>still
> >> important to know how. It's sort of like saying it's not important to
>know
> >> that there is a linker and what it does most people on this list will
>never
> >> know what the linker does because they deal mainly with High level
>languages
> >> but that doesn't mean the linker is not important. Most people will
>never
> >> write machine language but when creating electronic circuits with smaller
> >> chips it is a useful tool. True you may never hand write it but in
>creating
> >> hardware it is very useful in reading it. I just found learning to write
>it
> >> was very useful back in the good old Hack hardware cartridges days. Sure
> >> the Intel book has both got bigger and more complex but I just saw a post
> >> where a guy wrote a hello world in Machine language just to prove it
>could
> >> be done. Now I will point out he did it in Linux and he had to make his
>own
> >> linker of sorts well a shell linker all it did was write the file with
>the
> >> numbers he wanted but I think he did that just so he could use a normal
> >> editor and he had to add the Aelf stuff on top but he did it in 120 bites
> >> which I find pretty impressive since 80 of the bites were AELF stuff.
> >> Anyway I am sure we are boring most of the people on this list.
> >>
> >> Ken
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
> >> Coale
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 7:39 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
> >> programmers
> >>
> >> Wait, you are adding new stuff in here. Yes, to me, it is important to
> >> know how to optimize code for either size or speed. It is also important
> >> to know how programs are executed and created (knowing the PE32 format,
> >> for example); however, knowing how to write a program by scratch by
> >> using a hex editor and writing pure byte code is not important. And, you
> >> are misinterpreting my reason for saying it is not important. I'm not
> >> saying it's not important because it is nasty studying. I'm saying it is
> >> not important because it is simply not practical and teaches you no more
> >> than studying assembly and operating systems (assuming you are actually
> >> learning). And I didn't say it wasn't useful, either. Knowledge for
> >> knowledge's sake is always good. But, I said it wasn't important. You
> >> seem to be mixing up the knowledge required to do something and the
> >> knowledge gained from doing said thing. In order to start editing a
> >> program using a hex editor, you have to already have the knowledge to do
> >> it (as in, you have to know that there is a data section, a symbolic
> >> table, etc.). You gain no new knowledge (aside from knowing how to edit
> >> executables) from editing, and/or writing, executables from within a
> >> hex-editor.
> >>
> >> On 4/9/2011 3:59 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
> >>> Oh really? I found it very useful knowing how to minimize code and data
> >>> sections by hand. It explains what compilers and linkers have to go
> >> through
> >>> and ways to get around problems that exist. It even is nice knowing how
> >> exe
> >>> files are laid out. I agree that it's a nasty bit of study to get to
>that
> >>> point but I totally disagree that the knowledge is not useful. In fact
>if
> >>> you ever want to get involved with the GNU compiler group believe me
>it's
> >>> useful.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ken
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
> >>> Coale
> >>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 6:52 PM
> >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
> >>> programmers
> >>>
> >>> My knowledge of how the processor works (by means of knowing assembly
> >>> and OS development) is useful. Knowing how to write a program using only
> >>> byte code is not (and I couldn't do it without many free hours and lots
> >>> of reference manuals, and even then it would be a difficult task). Not
> >>> to belittle your knowledge, but I'm just saying that being able to write
> >>> a program using a hex-editor (and if you can, more power to you) is not
> >>> very helpful in understanding how computers work; learning assembly and
> >>> learning operating system design is where it is important, I would say.
> >>>
> >>> On 4/9/2011 3:45 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
> >>>> Yes and us true geeks used to dream hex in our sleep. I think there
>are
> >>>> still some of us left and I am no longer one, I know of all the
> >>>> possibilities and I can still code in ASM for burning chips but I no
> >>> longer
> >>>> dream in op codes and registers, memory locations and IRQ's. All I was
> >>>> saying is learning of the existence and how it works is invaluable to a
> >>>> programmer even today. Are you telling me your knowledge of the
>subject
> >>> is
> >>>> not useful?
> >>>>
> >>>> Ken
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
> >>>> Coale
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 3:30 PM
> >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
> >>>> programmers
> >>>>
> >>>> I didn't say it was impossible (after all, how else would a compiler
> >>>> work?) I said that it was asinine and impractical. I say this because
> >>>> the x86 instruction set is amazingly complex. Sure someone could use a
> >>>> debugger to look around at machine code, that's not hard at all (in
> >>>> fact, I do it a lot with vc++ to debug things and get performance
> >>>> boosts). But, writing a binary file from scratch? I see it being
> >>>> possible, but you would need to know the encoding of every instruction
> >>>> you use. For example, "int imm8" is apparently 0xCD + the immediate
> >>>> byte, so to do int 80h, you'd have 0xCD80. That is fairly simple, but
> >>>> the "mov" instructions where you can have memory, immediate, and
> >>>> register operands are difficult, and then for each memory, immediate,
> >>>> and register operand you have an 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit, and for x64,
> >>>> 64-bit versions. It's no small feat to write a binary by hand.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Laugh yes I have read them and there was a time I could write some
>very
> >>>> good
> >>>>> stuff with nothing but a debugger. Just because it's nasty don't mean
> >>>> it's
> >>>>> impossible. I was not even in the same class of some of the guys I
>used
> >>>> to
> >>>>> hang out with. I knew one that won a programming contest who wrote a
> >>>>> program to display a naked woman with nothing more than Assembler and
>a
> >>>> text
> >>>>> editor. As for machine language you can write it on your own if you
> >> know
> >>>>> enough. Unfortunately time has dulled my memory of useless interrupts
> >>>>> because we have so much easier ways to do things now. I think I could
> >>>>> probably get a command line app to run with nothing but a hex editor
>but
> >>>>> calling the GUI might be beyond me because you would have to do some
> >>>> serious
> >>>>> digging to get that to work and sometimes the information is just not
> >>>>> available anymore.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ken
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ken
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>Christopher
> >>>>> Coale
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 2:23 AM
> >>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
>blind
> >>>>> programmers
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What? Have you ever read the x86 information sheets? Teaching someone
> >>>>> assembly is a good way to teach them how a computer works -- having
>them
> >>>>> write programs in pure byte code (especially for x86) is both asinine
> >>>>> and impractical. Maybe not so much for an extremely extremely simple
> >>>>> virtual machine or basic processor, but complex instruction sets like
> >>>>> x86 are flat-out beyond writing op-codes by hand. If you don't believe
> >>>>> me, just take a poke at the NASM source code. ;)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 4/8/2011 6:47 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
> >>>>>> I am not quite as old as you but I come from the same time zone. I
>had
> >>>> to
> >>>>>> learn assembler to hack games on the Vic 20 and the commodore 64 and
> >> the
> >>>>> TI
> >>>>>> but more than that when I joined the Air Force and took on
>Electronics
> >>>>>> Assembler made my life easier. Then later in life after I lost my
>site
> >>> I
> >>>>>> took software engineering and had to burn chips and while we could
>have
> >>>>>> wrote stuff in C it was much easier to control the registers and
>stuff
> >>>>> with
> >>>>>> ASM. If we used C we allot of the time had to use special assembler
> >>>>>> keywords to get things to work quite right. If you look on the Fruit
> >>>>> Basket
> >>>>>> page I was also insane enough to write the fruit basket in Assembler
> >> for
> >>>>>> windows xp and it runs in vista. I am not sure if that runs in
>Windows
> >>> 7
> >>>>>> but I should revisit it and make sure it does. Lost knowledge is not
>a
> >>>>> good
> >>>>>> thing. Assembler may not be a way I would write a project now days
>but
> >>>> if
> >>>>>> you want to teach someone how your computers work there is only one
> >>> thing
> >>>>>> better. The one thing better is straight opt codes using a debugger
> >> and
> >>>>>> watching what is going on. Well you could also write straight binary
> >>>>> files
> >>>>>> like a good Fortran coder but who does that any more. That what I
> >>> should
> >>>>> do
> >>>>>> is create the fruit basket with nothing but a hex editor.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ken
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bill Cox
> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 11:40 AM
> >>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
>blind
> >>>>>> programmers
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Littlefield,
> >> Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Assember? Really? You must be almost as old
> >>>>>>>> as me! I can't even find people who care about speed or memory
>usage
> >>>>>>>> anymore.
> >>>>>>> I love assembler. It's a great way to teach people what's going on
> >>> under
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> hood and make them think about what they do. Every time I see
>someone
> >>>>>>> reserve a 100k buffer just because, I cringe. :)
> >>>>>> We must be from the same generation. I'm 47, and learned to program
> >>>>>> in machine code on an 8080 based Intel board with a hex keypad and
> >>>>>> some LEDs. It was a couple of years before I found out that people
> >>>>>> programmed using assemblers, rather than entering hex by hand.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I worry that the new generation's early experience with computers is
> >>>>>> amazing games and technology so complex they could never
>realistically
> >>>>>> hope to understand it. What's the natural path now days for kids to
> >>>>>> go from playing computer games to writing them? On the old Apple
>IIs,
> >>>>>> you just typed list instead of run, and there was all the code.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bill
> >>>>>> __________
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