RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind programmers

I want to say one last thing.  I and Sina should not be put on any pedestal
we might know a lot but we don't know that much.  If there is one thing I
have learned its if I blink to long a technology will out run me and I will
be left chizz ling stone wheels to make my cart roll.

Ken


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield,
Tyler
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 9:49 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
programmers

Lol. you're placing you and Ken on some pedastal for what ever reason. 
Chris -is not- denying that understanding about opcodes is good. he's 
saying that knowing how to whip up a program in machine language is 
utterly pointless.
On 4/10/2011 6:40 AM, Sina Bahram wrote:
> But it's not even that. What these folks, I feel, are failing to realize
is that even today it's important to understand two's
> complement and other fundamental concepts.
>
> Maybe some of you have heard of twitter. Well, guess what. If those folks
had paid attention in computer freaking science 101, then
> maybe they wouldn't have used unsigned 32-bit integers for an application
that obviously would break 4 billion in no time. So you
> know what happened? All of twitter went down for hours and hours because
some idiot used a 32-bit int and they all rolled over to 0.
>
> But hey, let's just ignore the basics. In today's high level languages, it
doesn't matter, right?
>
> And if you want real stories, ask Ken and I about the military screw ups
with binary roll over, missle guidance systems screwing up,
> etc, etc.
>
> The basics matter folks .. it's just that simple.
>
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 12:46 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
programmers
>
> Yes and I suppose that assembler wrote the code in what?  How did he know
> what to tell that assembler to write.  Excuse me mister assembler please
> output my code into the binary format made for this particular chip which
I
> designed.
>
> Sigh I said I wouldn't say anymore now I am done.
>
> Ken
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
> Coale
> Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 12:22 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
> programmers
>
> People need to understand though... I understand what you're saying, but
> even in hardware design, it is not important. Yes, the designer of a
> processor needs to know their own instruction set and how the
> instructions are encoded. However, and that's a huge however, they are
> not going to continually be writing test code by hand.
>
> A good friend of mine has been working on a processor design. Yes, he
> tested a few things out by feeding it raw bytes, however, he did not
> ever once write a full program for it using his machine language. In
> fact, instead of having to do that, he wrote his own assembler that
> would compile to his machine language, so that he was able to do
> something similar to:
>
> mov reg0, 100
> add reg0, 50
>
> and then test that. Point being, it is impractical to do what you are
> talking about in the real world and is therefore not important to be
> able to do. I hate for this to come out the wrong way, but maybe in the
> time you were working on hardware it was required, but today it is
> definitely not. Now don't get me wrong here.. it's an impressive skill
> to have if you can do it, and congratulations for being able to do it,
> but I'm just trying to get the point across to everyone else that it
> isn't an important skill that they need to develop.
>
>
> On 4/9/2011 9:10 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>> I think the problem is  the meaning of important is different for
> different
>> people.  For example.  Knowing how the core of a bowling ball is
important
>> to a professional bowler while knowing that it has 3 holes and has to hit
>> the pins is fine for people who bowl for recreation.  I will yield in
that
>> it may not be important to some and probably not many but it all depends
> on
>> which place you are coming from.  I am coming from a frame of mind that
>> hardware design is just as important as coding and both have to meet in
> the
>> middle.  I don't just deal with Intel or AMD and sometimes the compilers
> are
>> not as good as those you might be dealing with.  So I am finished with
> this
>> conversation mainly because it's getting out of hand.  Besides in the
>> immortal paraphrased words of two famous presidents.  "let me be
perfectly
>> clear",   " it all depends on the meaning of 'is'".
>>
>> Ken
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>> Coale
>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 10:36 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>> programmers
>>
>> How kind of you to join, master. Can you tell me who said that low-level
>> was NOT important to know and understand? You admittedly stated that you
>> ignored 65% of the messages, but then tell everyone to take Ken's side?
>> Are you kidding me? You admit that you don't know what the argument
>> (friendly argument) is about, yet you still pick a side? Come on now...
>>
>> Ken stated that --being able to write a program in pure machine code (no
>> compiler or assembler)-- is important. I disagreed saying that it is not
>> important. Knowing low-level concepts (like I pointed out earlier.. how
>> the processor works, operating system design, etc.) is definitely
>> important. Writing a program in pure machine code is an unnecessary
>> skill, not an important one.
>>
>> On 4/9/2011 7:27 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>> I haven't read 65% of the messages in this thread, frankly because the
> SNR
>> is far too low.
>>> So can you guys please just listen to Ken on this one?
>>>
>>> low level is important to know and understand. End of conversation.
>>>
>>> Now go do something fun. It's Saturday night.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 8:06 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>> programmers
>>> I think we are just going to have to disagree on this.  While I doubt
>> anyone
>>> is going to rush out and write a bit of Machine language I think it is
>> still
>>> important to know how.  It's sort of like saying it's not important to
>> know
>>> that there is a linker and what it does most people on this list will
>> never
>>> know what the linker does because they deal mainly with High level
>> languages
>>> but that doesn't mean the linker is not important.  Most people will
> never
>>> write machine language but when creating electronic circuits with
smaller
>>> chips it is a useful tool.  True you may never hand write it but in
>> creating
>>> hardware it is very useful in reading it.  I just found learning to
write
>> it
>>> was very useful back in the good old Hack hardware cartridges days.
Sure
>>> the Intel book has both got bigger and more complex but I just saw a
post
>>> where a guy wrote a hello world in Machine language just to prove it
> could
>>> be done.  Now I will point out he did it in Linux and he had to make his
>> own
>>> linker of sorts well a shell linker all it did was write the file with
> the
>>> numbers he wanted but I think he did that just so he could use a normal
>>> editor and he had to add the Aelf stuff on top but he did it in 120
bites
>>> which I find pretty impressive since 80 of the bites were AELF stuff.
>>> Anyway I am sure we are boring most of the people on this list.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>>> Coale
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 7:39 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>> programmers
>>>
>>> Wait, you are adding new stuff in here. Yes, to me, it is important to
>>> know how to optimize code for either size or speed. It is also important
>>> to know how programs are executed and created (knowing the PE32 format,
>>> for example); however, knowing how to write a program by scratch by
>>> using a hex editor and writing pure byte code is not important. And, you
>>> are misinterpreting my reason for saying it is not important. I'm not
>>> saying it's not important because it is nasty studying. I'm saying it is
>>> not important because it is simply not practical and teaches you no more
>>> than studying assembly and operating systems (assuming you are actually
>>> learning). And I didn't say it wasn't useful, either. Knowledge for
>>> knowledge's sake is always good. But, I said it wasn't important. You
>>> seem to be mixing up the knowledge required to do something and the
>>> knowledge gained from doing said thing. In order to start editing a
>>> program using a hex editor, you have to already have the knowledge to do
>>> it (as in, you have to know that there is a data section, a symbolic
>>> table, etc.). You gain no new knowledge (aside from knowing how to edit
>>> executables) from editing, and/or writing, executables from within a
>>> hex-editor.
>>>
>>> On 4/9/2011 3:59 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>> Oh really?  I found it very useful knowing how to minimize code and
data
>>>> sections by hand.  It explains what compilers and linkers have to go
>>> through
>>>> and ways to get around problems that exist.  It even is nice knowing
how
>>> exe
>>>> files are laid out.  I agree that it's a nasty bit of study to get to
>> that
>>>> point but I totally disagree that the knowledge is not useful.  In fact
>> if
>>>> you ever want to get involved with the GNU compiler group believe me
> it's
>>>> useful.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>>>> Coale
>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 6:52 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>>> programmers
>>>>
>>>> My knowledge of how the processor works (by means of knowing assembly
>>>> and OS development) is useful. Knowing how to write a program using
only
>>>> byte code is not (and I couldn't do it without many free hours and lots
>>>> of reference manuals, and even then it would be a difficult task). Not
>>>> to belittle your knowledge, but I'm just saying that being able to
write
>>>> a program using a hex-editor (and if you can, more power to you) is not
>>>> very helpful in understanding how computers work; learning assembly and
>>>> learning operating system design is where it is important, I would say.
>>>>
>>>> On 4/9/2011 3:45 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>>> Yes and us true geeks used to dream hex in our sleep.  I think there
> are
>>>>> still some of us left and I am no longer one, I know of all the
>>>>> possibilities and I can still code in ASM for burning chips but I no
>>>> longer
>>>>> dream in op codes and registers, memory locations and IRQ's.  All I
was
>>>>> saying is learning of the existence and how it works is invaluable to
a
>>>>> programmer even today.  Are you telling me your knowledge of the
> subject
>>>> is
>>>>> not useful?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Christopher
>>>>> Coale
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 3:30 PM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
blind
>>>>> programmers
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't say it was impossible (after all, how else would a compiler
>>>>> work?) I said that it was asinine and impractical.  I say this because
>>>>> the x86 instruction set is amazingly complex. Sure someone could use a
>>>>> debugger to look around at machine code, that's not hard at all (in
>>>>> fact, I do it a lot with vc++ to debug things and get performance
>>>>> boosts). But, writing a binary file from scratch? I see it being
>>>>> possible, but you would need to know the encoding of every instruction
>>>>> you use. For example, "int imm8" is apparently 0xCD + the immediate
>>>>> byte, so to do int 80h, you'd have 0xCD80. That is fairly simple, but
>>>>> the "mov" instructions where you can have memory, immediate, and
>>>>> register operands are difficult, and then for each memory, immediate,
>>>>> and register operand you have an 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit, and for x64,
>>>>> 64-bit versions. It's no small feat to write a binary by hand.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Laugh yes I have read them and there was a time I could write some
> very
>>>>> good
>>>>>> stuff with nothing but a debugger.  Just because it's nasty don't
mean
>>>>> it's
>>>>>> impossible.  I was not even in the same class of some of the guys I
>> used
>>>>> to
>>>>>> hang out with.  I knew one that won a programming contest who wrote a
>>>>>> program to display a naked woman with nothing more than Assembler and
> a
>>>>> text
>>>>>> editor.  As for machine language you can write it on your own if you
>>> know
>>>>>> enough.  Unfortunately time has dulled my memory of useless
interrupts
>>>>>> because we have so much easier ways to do things now.  I think I
could
>>>>>> probably get a command line app to run with nothing but a hex editor
>> but
>>>>>> calling the GUI might be beyond me because you would have to do some
>>>>> serious
>>>>>> digging to get that to work and sometimes the information is just not
>>>>>> available anymore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Christopher
>>>>>> Coale
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 2:23 AM
>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
> blind
>>>>>> programmers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What? Have you ever read the x86 information sheets? Teaching someone
>>>>>> assembly is a good way to teach them how a computer works -- having
>> them
>>>>>> write programs in pure byte code (especially for x86) is both asinine
>>>>>> and impractical.  Maybe not so much for an extremely extremely simple
>>>>>> virtual machine or basic processor, but complex instruction sets like
>>>>>> x86 are flat-out beyond writing op-codes by hand. If you don't
believe
>>>>>> me, just take a poke at the NASM source code. ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/8/2011 6:47 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> I am not quite as old as you but I come from the same time zone.  I
>> had
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> learn assembler to hack games on the Vic 20 and the commodore 64 and
>>> the
>>>>>> TI
>>>>>>> but more than that when I joined the Air Force and took on
> Electronics
>>>>>>> Assembler made my life easier.  Then later in life after I lost my
>> site
>>>> I
>>>>>>> took software engineering and had to burn chips and while we could
>> have
>>>>>>> wrote stuff in C it was much easier to control the registers and
> stuff
>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> ASM.  If we used C we allot of the time had to use special assembler
>>>>>>> keywords to get things to work quite right.  If you look on the
Fruit
>>>>>> Basket
>>>>>>> page I was also insane enough to write the fruit basket in Assembler
>>> for
>>>>>>> windows xp and it runs in vista.  I am not sure if that runs in
>> Windows
>>>> 7
>>>>>>> but I should revisit it and make sure it does.  Lost knowledge is
not
>> a
>>>>>> good
>>>>>>> thing.  Assembler may not be a way I would write a project now days
>> but
>>>>> if
>>>>>>> you want to teach someone how your computers work there is only one
>>>> thing
>>>>>>> better.  The one thing better is straight opt codes using a debugger
>>> and
>>>>>>> watching what is going on.  Well you could also write straight
binary
>>>>>> files
>>>>>>> like a good Fortran coder but who does that any more.  That what I
>>>> should
>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> is create the fruit basket with nothing but a hex editor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bill Cox
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 11:40 AM
>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
>> blind
>>>>>>> programmers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Littlefield,
>>> Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Assember?  Really?  You must be almost as old
>>>>>>>>> as me!  I can't even find people who care about speed or memory
>> usage
>>>>>>>>> anymore.
>>>>>>>> I love assembler. It's a great way to teach people what's going on
>>>> under
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> hood and make them think about what they do. Every time I see
> someone
>>>>>>>> reserve a 100k buffer just because, I cringe. :)
>>>>>>> We must be from the same generation.  I'm 47, and learned to program
>>>>>>> in machine code on an 8080 based Intel board with a hex keypad and
>>>>>>> some LEDs.  It was a couple of years before I found out that people
>>>>>>> programmed using assemblers, rather than entering hex by hand.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I worry that the new generation's early experience with computers is
>>>>>>> amazing games and technology so complex they could never
> realistically
>>>>>>> hope to understand it.  What's the natural path now days for kids to
>>>>>>> go from playing computer games to writing them?  On the old Apple
> IIs,
>>>>>>> you just typed list instead of run, and there was all the code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>


-- 

Thanks,
Ty

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at 
http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at 
http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

Other related posts: