I haven't read 65% of the messages in this thread, frankly because
the SNR is far too low.
So can you guys please just listen to Ken on this one?
low level is important to know and understand. End of conversation.
Now go do something fun. It's Saturday night.
Take care,
Sina
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 8:06 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
blind programmers
I think we are just going to have to disagree on this. While I
doubt anyone
is going to rush out and write a bit of Machine language I think it
is still
important to know how. It's sort of like saying it's not important
to know
that there is a linker and what it does most people on this list
will never
know what the linker does because they deal mainly with High level
languages
but that doesn't mean the linker is not important. Most people
will never
write machine language but when creating electronic circuits with
smaller
chips it is a useful tool. True you may never hand write it but in
creating
hardware it is very useful in reading it. I just found learning to
write it
was very useful back in the good old Hack hardware cartridges days.
Sure
the Intel book has both got bigger and more complex but I just saw
a post
where a guy wrote a hello world in Machine language just to prove
it could
be done. Now I will point out he did it in Linux and he had to
make his own
linker of sorts well a shell linker all it did was write the file
with the
numbers he wanted but I think he did that just so he could use a
normal
editor and he had to add the Aelf stuff on top but he did it in 120
bites
which I find pretty impressive since 80 of the bites were AELF stuff.
Anyway I am sure we are boring most of the people on this list.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Christopher
Coale
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 7:39 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
blind
programmers
Wait, you are adding new stuff in here. Yes, to me, it is important to
know how to optimize code for either size or speed. It is also
important
to know how programs are executed and created (knowing the PE32
format,
for example); however, knowing how to write a program by scratch by
using a hex editor and writing pure byte code is not important.
And, you
are misinterpreting my reason for saying it is not important. I'm not
saying it's not important because it is nasty studying. I'm saying
it is
not important because it is simply not practical and teaches you no
more
than studying assembly and operating systems (assuming you are
actually
learning). And I didn't say it wasn't useful, either. Knowledge for
knowledge's sake is always good. But, I said it wasn't important. You
seem to be mixing up the knowledge required to do something and the
knowledge gained from doing said thing. In order to start editing a
program using a hex editor, you have to already have the knowledge
to do
it (as in, you have to know that there is a data section, a symbolic
table, etc.). You gain no new knowledge (aside from knowing how to
edit
executables) from editing, and/or writing, executables from within a
hex-editor.
On 4/9/2011 3:59 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
Oh really? I found it very useful knowing how to minimize code
and data
sections by hand. It explains what compilers and linkers have to go
through
and ways to get around problems that exist. It even is nice
knowing how
exe
files are laid out. I agree that it's a nasty bit of study to get
to that
point but I totally disagree that the knowledge is not useful. In
fact if
you ever want to get involved with the GNU compiler group believe
me it's
useful.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Christopher
Coale
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 6:52 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
blind
programmers
My knowledge of how the processor works (by means of knowing assembly
and OS development) is useful. Knowing how to write a program
using only
byte code is not (and I couldn't do it without many free hours and
lots
of reference manuals, and even then it would be a difficult task).
Not
to belittle your knowledge, but I'm just saying that being able to
write
a program using a hex-editor (and if you can, more power to you)
is not
very helpful in understanding how computers work; learning
assembly and
learning operating system design is where it is important, I would
say.
On 4/9/2011 3:45 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
Yes and us true geeks used to dream hex in our sleep. I think
there are
still some of us left and I am no longer one, I know of all the
possibilities and I can still code in ASM for burning chips but I no
longer
dream in op codes and registers, memory locations and IRQ's. All
I was
saying is learning of the existence and how it works is
invaluable to a
programmer even today. Are you telling me your knowledge of the
subject
is
not useful?
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Christopher
Coale
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 3:30 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
blind
programmers
I didn't say it was impossible (after all, how else would a compiler
work?) I said that it was asinine and impractical. I say this
because
the x86 instruction set is amazingly complex. Sure someone could
use a
debugger to look around at machine code, that's not hard at all (in
fact, I do it a lot with vc++ to debug things and get performance
boosts). But, writing a binary file from scratch? I see it being
possible, but you would need to know the encoding of every
instruction
you use. For example, "int imm8" is apparently 0xCD + the immediate
byte, so to do int 80h, you'd have 0xCD80. That is fairly simple,
but
the "mov" instructions where you can have memory, immediate, and
register operands are difficult, and then for each memory,
immediate,
and register operand you have an 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit, and for x64,
64-bit versions. It's no small feat to write a binary by hand.
Laugh yes I have read them and there was a time I could write
some very
good
stuff with nothing but a debugger. Just because it's nasty
don't mean
it's
impossible. I was not even in the same class of some of the
guys I used
to
hang out with. I knew one that won a programming contest who
wrote a
program to display a naked woman with nothing more than
Assembler and a
text
editor. As for machine language you can write it on your own if
you
know
enough. Unfortunately time has dulled my memory of useless
interrupts
because we have so much easier ways to do things now. I think I
could
probably get a command line app to run with nothing but a hex
editor but
calling the GUI might be beyond me because you would have to do
some
serious
digging to get that to work and sometimes the information is
just not
available anymore.
Ken
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Christopher
Coale
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 2:23 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school
for blind
programmers
What? Have you ever read the x86 information sheets? Teaching
someone
assembly is a good way to teach them how a computer works --
having them
write programs in pure byte code (especially for x86) is both
asinine
and impractical. Maybe not so much for an extremely extremely
simple
virtual machine or basic processor, but complex instruction sets
like
x86 are flat-out beyond writing op-codes by hand. If you don't
believe
me, just take a poke at the NASM source code. ;)
On 4/8/2011 6:47 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
I am not quite as old as you but I come from the same time
zone. I had
to
learn assembler to hack games on the Vic 20 and the commodore
64 and
the
TI
but more than that when I joined the Air Force and took on
Electronics
Assembler made my life easier. Then later in life after I lost
my site
I
took software engineering and had to burn chips and while we
could have
wrote stuff in C it was much easier to control the registers
and stuff
with
ASM. If we used C we allot of the time had to use special
assembler
keywords to get things to work quite right. If you look on the
Fruit
Basket
page I was also insane enough to write the fruit basket in
Assembler
for
windows xp and it runs in vista. I am not sure if that runs in
Windows
7
but I should revisit it and make sure it does. Lost knowledge
is not a
good
thing. Assembler may not be a way I would write a project now
days but
if
you want to teach someone how your computers work there is only
one
thing
better. The one thing better is straight opt codes using a
debugger
and
watching what is going on. Well you could also write straight
binary
files
like a good Fortran coder but who does that any more. That what I
should
do
is create the fruit basket with nothing but a hex editor.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Bill Cox
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 11:40 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school
for blind
programmers
On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Littlefield,
Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Assember? Really? You must be almost as old
as me! I can't even find people who care about speed or
memory usage
anymore.
I love assembler. It's a great way to teach people what's
going on
under
the
hood and make them think about what they do. Every time I see
someone
reserve a 100k buffer just because, I cringe. :)
We must be from the same generation. I'm 47, and learned to
program
in machine code on an 8080 based Intel board with a hex keypad and
some LEDs. It was a couple of years before I found out that
people
programmed using assemblers, rather than entering hex by hand.
I worry that the new generation's early experience with
computers is
amazing games and technology so complex they could never
realistically
hope to understand it. What's the natural path now days for
kids to
go from playing computer games to writing them? On the old
Apple IIs,
you just typed list instead of run, and there was all the code.
Bill
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