Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind programmers
- From: Dave <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 07:14:59 -0700
It's fair to say that computer science as a discipline has grown so
deeply in many areas that I don't think any one person can understand
both the bredth and the depth of every sub-concentration of the
discipline.
There are things about computer graphics (i.e. derivations of
differential equations in simulating 3-d smoke) that people on list
won't ever know or care about, but it's still important to someone :).
Knowing how to write hello world in x86 asm or even then how that asm
gets translated into bits is interesting and writing it by hand makes
it "real", but I don't think Ken's saying you're gonna go out and
write a word processor using the same techniques; perhaps only
critical components or even just to optimize.
These black and white arguments always seem so counter productive :).
On 4/10/11, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> O, excuse me, master. I need to kneel down and be in awe of your $120000
> hire and your vast experience. because in the end, what you say is right
> because you have the experience and we all just need to listen to -you-
> and -ken-, regardless of whether or not you might be speaking something
> near fact or not.
> On 4/10/2011 6:40 AM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>> Is that why I hired someone at 120,000 a year to do exactly that?
>>
>> *shrug*, but enjoy whatever it is you feel is better, given your years of
>> experience in the job market, of course.
>>
>> If I were you, I'd be making the argument that money might be the only
>> reason to learn such things. That, too, would be a flawed
>> argument of course, but at least one closer to reality.
>>
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield,
>> Tyler
>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 10:33 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>> programmers
>>
>> apparently you missed 90% of this discussion. At no point did Chris say
>> that low-level was not worth understanding. He's pointing out that this
>> "I'm a hacker from way back who can write out machine language," is
>> stupid and really makes no sense in any sort of setting. IT's good to
>> know, good to understand, but it's not like you're going to get a job
>> writing machine language generally. Maybe if you make your own processor
>> it'd be useful.
>> On 4/9/2011 8:27 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>> I haven't read 65% of the messages in this thread, frankly because the
>>> SNR is far too low.
>>>
>>> So can you guys please just listen to Ken on this one?
>>>
>>> low level is important to know and understand. End of conversation.
>>>
>>> Now go do something fun. It's Saturday night.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 8:06 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>> programmers
>>>
>>> I think we are just going to have to disagree on this. While I doubt
>>> anyone
>>> is going to rush out and write a bit of Machine language I think it is
>>> still
>>> important to know how. It's sort of like saying it's not important to
>>> know
>>> that there is a linker and what it does most people on this list will
>>> never
>>> know what the linker does because they deal mainly with High level
>>> languages
>>> but that doesn't mean the linker is not important. Most people will
>>> never
>>> write machine language but when creating electronic circuits with smaller
>>> chips it is a useful tool. True you may never hand write it but in
>>> creating
>>> hardware it is very useful in reading it. I just found learning to write
>>> it
>>> was very useful back in the good old Hack hardware cartridges days. Sure
>>> the Intel book has both got bigger and more complex but I just saw a post
>>> where a guy wrote a hello world in Machine language just to prove it
>>> could
>>> be done. Now I will point out he did it in Linux and he had to make his
>>> own
>>> linker of sorts well a shell linker all it did was write the file with
>>> the
>>> numbers he wanted but I think he did that just so he could use a normal
>>> editor and he had to add the Aelf stuff on top but he did it in 120 bites
>>> which I find pretty impressive since 80 of the bites were AELF stuff.
>>> Anyway I am sure we are boring most of the people on this list.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>>> Coale
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 7:39 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>> programmers
>>>
>>> Wait, you are adding new stuff in here. Yes, to me, it is important to
>>> know how to optimize code for either size or speed. It is also important
>>> to know how programs are executed and created (knowing the PE32 format,
>>> for example); however, knowing how to write a program by scratch by
>>> using a hex editor and writing pure byte code is not important. And, you
>>> are misinterpreting my reason for saying it is not important. I'm not
>>> saying it's not important because it is nasty studying. I'm saying it is
>>> not important because it is simply not practical and teaches you no more
>>> than studying assembly and operating systems (assuming you are actually
>>> learning). And I didn't say it wasn't useful, either. Knowledge for
>>> knowledge's sake is always good. But, I said it wasn't important. You
>>> seem to be mixing up the knowledge required to do something and the
>>> knowledge gained from doing said thing. In order to start editing a
>>> program using a hex editor, you have to already have the knowledge to do
>>> it (as in, you have to know that there is a data section, a symbolic
>>> table, etc.). You gain no new knowledge (aside from knowing how to edit
>>> executables) from editing, and/or writing, executables from within a
>>> hex-editor.
>>>
>>> On 4/9/2011 3:59 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>> Oh really? I found it very useful knowing how to minimize code and data
>>>> sections by hand. It explains what compilers and linkers have to go
>>> through
>>>> and ways to get around problems that exist. It even is nice knowing how
>>> exe
>>>> files are laid out. I agree that it's a nasty bit of study to get to
>>>> that
>>>> point but I totally disagree that the knowledge is not useful. In fact
>>>> if
>>>> you ever want to get involved with the GNU compiler group believe me
>>>> it's
>>>> useful.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>>>> Coale
>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 6:52 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>>> programmers
>>>>
>>>> My knowledge of how the processor works (by means of knowing assembly
>>>> and OS development) is useful. Knowing how to write a program using only
>>>> byte code is not (and I couldn't do it without many free hours and lots
>>>> of reference manuals, and even then it would be a difficult task). Not
>>>> to belittle your knowledge, but I'm just saying that being able to write
>>>> a program using a hex-editor (and if you can, more power to you) is not
>>>> very helpful in understanding how computers work; learning assembly and
>>>> learning operating system design is where it is important, I would say.
>>>>
>>>> On 4/9/2011 3:45 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>>> Yes and us true geeks used to dream hex in our sleep. I think there
>>>>> are
>>>>> still some of us left and I am no longer one, I know of all the
>>>>> possibilities and I can still code in ASM for burning chips but I no
>>>> longer
>>>>> dream in op codes and registers, memory locations and IRQ's. All I was
>>>>> saying is learning of the existence and how it works is invaluable to a
>>>>> programmer even today. Are you telling me your knowledge of the
>>>>> subject
>>>> is
>>>>> not useful?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>>>>> Coale
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 3:30 PM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>>>> programmers
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't say it was impossible (after all, how else would a compiler
>>>>> work?) I said that it was asinine and impractical. I say this because
>>>>> the x86 instruction set is amazingly complex. Sure someone could use a
>>>>> debugger to look around at machine code, that's not hard at all (in
>>>>> fact, I do it a lot with vc++ to debug things and get performance
>>>>> boosts). But, writing a binary file from scratch? I see it being
>>>>> possible, but you would need to know the encoding of every instruction
>>>>> you use. For example, "int imm8" is apparently 0xCD + the immediate
>>>>> byte, so to do int 80h, you'd have 0xCD80. That is fairly simple, but
>>>>> the "mov" instructions where you can have memory, immediate, and
>>>>> register operands are difficult, and then for each memory, immediate,
>>>>> and register operand you have an 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit, and for x64,
>>>>> 64-bit versions. It's no small feat to write a binary by hand.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Laugh yes I have read them and there was a time I could write some
>>>>>> very
>>>>> good
>>>>>> stuff with nothing but a debugger. Just because it's nasty don't mean
>>>>> it's
>>>>>> impossible. I was not even in the same class of some of the guys I
>>>>>> used
>>>>> to
>>>>>> hang out with. I knew one that won a programming contest who wrote a
>>>>>> program to display a naked woman with nothing more than Assembler and
>>>>>> a
>>>>> text
>>>>>> editor. As for machine language you can write it on your own if you
>>> know
>>>>>> enough. Unfortunately time has dulled my memory of useless interrupts
>>>>>> because we have so much easier ways to do things now. I think I could
>>>>>> probably get a command line app to run with nothing but a hex editor
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> calling the GUI might be beyond me because you would have to do some
>>>>> serious
>>>>>> digging to get that to work and sometimes the information is just not
>>>>>> available anymore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Christopher
>>>>>> Coale
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 2:23 AM
>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> programmers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What? Have you ever read the x86 information sheets? Teaching someone
>>>>>> assembly is a good way to teach them how a computer works -- having
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> write programs in pure byte code (especially for x86) is both asinine
>>>>>> and impractical. Maybe not so much for an extremely extremely simple
>>>>>> virtual machine or basic processor, but complex instruction sets like
>>>>>> x86 are flat-out beyond writing op-codes by hand. If you don't believe
>>>>>> me, just take a poke at the NASM source code. ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/8/2011 6:47 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> I am not quite as old as you but I come from the same time zone. I
>>>>>>> had
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> learn assembler to hack games on the Vic 20 and the commodore 64 and
>>> the
>>>>>> TI
>>>>>>> but more than that when I joined the Air Force and took on
>>>>>>> Electronics
>>>>>>> Assembler made my life easier. Then later in life after I lost my
>>>>>>> site
>>>> I
>>>>>>> took software engineering and had to burn chips and while we could
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> wrote stuff in C it was much easier to control the registers and
>>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> ASM. If we used C we allot of the time had to use special assembler
>>>>>>> keywords to get things to work quite right. If you look on the Fruit
>>>>>> Basket
>>>>>>> page I was also insane enough to write the fruit basket in Assembler
>>> for
>>>>>>> windows xp and it runs in vista. I am not sure if that runs in
>>>>>>> Windows
>>>> 7
>>>>>>> but I should revisit it and make sure it does. Lost knowledge is not
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>> good
>>>>>>> thing. Assembler may not be a way I would write a project now days
>>>>>>> but
>>>>> if
>>>>>>> you want to teach someone how your computers work there is only one
>>>> thing
>>>>>>> better. The one thing better is straight opt codes using a debugger
>>> and
>>>>>>> watching what is going on. Well you could also write straight binary
>>>>>> files
>>>>>>> like a good Fortran coder but who does that any more. That what I
>>>> should
>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> is create the fruit basket with nothing but a hex editor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bill Cox
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 11:40 AM
>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> programmers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Littlefield,
>>> Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Assember? Really? You must be almost as old
>>>>>>>>> as me! I can't even find people who care about speed or memory
>>>>>>>>> usage
>>>>>>>>> anymore.
>>>>>>>> I love assembler. It's a great way to teach people what's going on
>>>> under
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> hood and make them think about what they do. Every time I see
>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>> reserve a 100k buffer just because, I cringe. :)
>>>>>>> We must be from the same generation. I'm 47, and learned to program
>>>>>>> in machine code on an 8080 based Intel board with a hex keypad and
>>>>>>> some LEDs. It was a couple of years before I found out that people
>>>>>>> programmed using assemblers, rather than entering hex by hand.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I worry that the new generation's early experience with computers is
>>>>>>> amazing games and technology so complex they could never
>>>>>>> realistically
>>>>>>> hope to understand it. What's the natural path now days for kids to
>>>>>>> go from playing computer games to writing them? On the old Apple
>>>>>>> IIs,
>>>>>>> you just typed list instead of run, and there was all the code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>
>
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
> Ty
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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>
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