RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind programmers
- From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 10:10:21 -0400
*chuckling*, exactly, why would we let reality interfere with intuition.
Signing off this thread, like Ken.
Take care,
Sina
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 9:51 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
programmers
O, excuse me, master. I need to kneel down and be in awe of your $120000
hire and your vast experience. because in the end, what you say is right
because you have the experience and we all just need to listen to -you-
and -ken-, regardless of whether or not you might be speaking something
near fact or not.
On 4/10/2011 6:40 AM, Sina Bahram wrote:
> Is that why I hired someone at 120,000 a year to do exactly that?
>
> *shrug*, but enjoy whatever it is you feel is better, given your years of
> experience in the job market, of course.
>
> If I were you, I'd be making the argument that money might be the only reason
> to learn such things. That, too, would be a flawed
> argument of course, but at least one closer to reality.
>
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler
> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 10:33 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
> programmers
>
> apparently you missed 90% of this discussion. At no point did Chris say
> that low-level was not worth understanding. He's pointing out that this
> "I'm a hacker from way back who can write out machine language," is
> stupid and really makes no sense in any sort of setting. IT's good to
> know, good to understand, but it's not like you're going to get a job
> writing machine language generally. Maybe if you make your own processor
> it'd be useful.
> On 4/9/2011 8:27 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>> I haven't read 65% of the messages in this thread, frankly because the SNR
>> is far too low.
>>
>> So can you guys please just listen to Ken on this one?
>>
>> low level is important to know and understand. End of conversation.
>>
>> Now go do something fun. It's Saturday night.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 8:06 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>> programmers
>>
>> I think we are just going to have to disagree on this. While I doubt anyone
>> is going to rush out and write a bit of Machine language I think it is still
>> important to know how. It's sort of like saying it's not important to know
>> that there is a linker and what it does most people on this list will never
>> know what the linker does because they deal mainly with High level languages
>> but that doesn't mean the linker is not important. Most people will never
>> write machine language but when creating electronic circuits with smaller
>> chips it is a useful tool. True you may never hand write it but in creating
>> hardware it is very useful in reading it. I just found learning to write it
>> was very useful back in the good old Hack hardware cartridges days. Sure
>> the Intel book has both got bigger and more complex but I just saw a post
>> where a guy wrote a hello world in Machine language just to prove it could
>> be done. Now I will point out he did it in Linux and he had to make his own
>> linker of sorts well a shell linker all it did was write the file with the
>> numbers he wanted but I think he did that just so he could use a normal
>> editor and he had to add the Aelf stuff on top but he did it in 120 bites
>> which I find pretty impressive since 80 of the bites were AELF stuff.
>> Anyway I am sure we are boring most of the people on this list.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>> Coale
>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 7:39 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>> programmers
>>
>> Wait, you are adding new stuff in here. Yes, to me, it is important to
>> know how to optimize code for either size or speed. It is also important
>> to know how programs are executed and created (knowing the PE32 format,
>> for example); however, knowing how to write a program by scratch by
>> using a hex editor and writing pure byte code is not important. And, you
>> are misinterpreting my reason for saying it is not important. I'm not
>> saying it's not important because it is nasty studying. I'm saying it is
>> not important because it is simply not practical and teaches you no more
>> than studying assembly and operating systems (assuming you are actually
>> learning). And I didn't say it wasn't useful, either. Knowledge for
>> knowledge's sake is always good. But, I said it wasn't important. You
>> seem to be mixing up the knowledge required to do something and the
>> knowledge gained from doing said thing. In order to start editing a
>> program using a hex editor, you have to already have the knowledge to do
>> it (as in, you have to know that there is a data section, a symbolic
>> table, etc.). You gain no new knowledge (aside from knowing how to edit
>> executables) from editing, and/or writing, executables from within a
>> hex-editor.
>>
>> On 4/9/2011 3:59 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>> Oh really? I found it very useful knowing how to minimize code and data
>>> sections by hand. It explains what compilers and linkers have to go
>> through
>>> and ways to get around problems that exist. It even is nice knowing how
>> exe
>>> files are laid out. I agree that it's a nasty bit of study to get to that
>>> point but I totally disagree that the knowledge is not useful. In fact if
>>> you ever want to get involved with the GNU compiler group believe me it's
>>> useful.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>>> Coale
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 6:52 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>> programmers
>>>
>>> My knowledge of how the processor works (by means of knowing assembly
>>> and OS development) is useful. Knowing how to write a program using only
>>> byte code is not (and I couldn't do it without many free hours and lots
>>> of reference manuals, and even then it would be a difficult task). Not
>>> to belittle your knowledge, but I'm just saying that being able to write
>>> a program using a hex-editor (and if you can, more power to you) is not
>>> very helpful in understanding how computers work; learning assembly and
>>> learning operating system design is where it is important, I would say.
>>>
>>> On 4/9/2011 3:45 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>> Yes and us true geeks used to dream hex in our sleep. I think there are
>>>> still some of us left and I am no longer one, I know of all the
>>>> possibilities and I can still code in ASM for burning chips but I no
>>> longer
>>>> dream in op codes and registers, memory locations and IRQ's. All I was
>>>> saying is learning of the existence and how it works is invaluable to a
>>>> programmer even today. Are you telling me your knowledge of the subject
>>> is
>>>> not useful?
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>>>> Coale
>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 3:30 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>>> programmers
>>>>
>>>> I didn't say it was impossible (after all, how else would a compiler
>>>> work?) I said that it was asinine and impractical. I say this because
>>>> the x86 instruction set is amazingly complex. Sure someone could use a
>>>> debugger to look around at machine code, that's not hard at all (in
>>>> fact, I do it a lot with vc++ to debug things and get performance
>>>> boosts). But, writing a binary file from scratch? I see it being
>>>> possible, but you would need to know the encoding of every instruction
>>>> you use. For example, "int imm8" is apparently 0xCD + the immediate
>>>> byte, so to do int 80h, you'd have 0xCD80. That is fairly simple, but
>>>> the "mov" instructions where you can have memory, immediate, and
>>>> register operands are difficult, and then for each memory, immediate,
>>>> and register operand you have an 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit, and for x64,
>>>> 64-bit versions. It's no small feat to write a binary by hand.
>>>>
>>>>> Laugh yes I have read them and there was a time I could write some very
>>>> good
>>>>> stuff with nothing but a debugger. Just because it's nasty don't mean
>>>> it's
>>>>> impossible. I was not even in the same class of some of the guys I used
>>>> to
>>>>> hang out with. I knew one that won a programming contest who wrote a
>>>>> program to display a naked woman with nothing more than Assembler and a
>>>> text
>>>>> editor. As for machine language you can write it on your own if you
>> know
>>>>> enough. Unfortunately time has dulled my memory of useless interrupts
>>>>> because we have so much easier ways to do things now. I think I could
>>>>> probably get a command line app to run with nothing but a hex editor but
>>>>> calling the GUI might be beyond me because you would have to do some
>>>> serious
>>>>> digging to get that to work and sometimes the information is just not
>>>>> available anymore.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>>>>> Coale
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 2:23 AM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>>>> programmers
>>>>>
>>>>> What? Have you ever read the x86 information sheets? Teaching someone
>>>>> assembly is a good way to teach them how a computer works -- having them
>>>>> write programs in pure byte code (especially for x86) is both asinine
>>>>> and impractical. Maybe not so much for an extremely extremely simple
>>>>> virtual machine or basic processor, but complex instruction sets like
>>>>> x86 are flat-out beyond writing op-codes by hand. If you don't believe
>>>>> me, just take a poke at the NASM source code. ;)
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/8/2011 6:47 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>>>> I am not quite as old as you but I come from the same time zone. I had
>>>> to
>>>>>> learn assembler to hack games on the Vic 20 and the commodore 64 and
>> the
>>>>> TI
>>>>>> but more than that when I joined the Air Force and took on Electronics
>>>>>> Assembler made my life easier. Then later in life after I lost my site
>>> I
>>>>>> took software engineering and had to burn chips and while we could have
>>>>>> wrote stuff in C it was much easier to control the registers and stuff
>>>>> with
>>>>>> ASM. If we used C we allot of the time had to use special assembler
>>>>>> keywords to get things to work quite right. If you look on the Fruit
>>>>> Basket
>>>>>> page I was also insane enough to write the fruit basket in Assembler
>> for
>>>>>> windows xp and it runs in vista. I am not sure if that runs in Windows
>>> 7
>>>>>> but I should revisit it and make sure it does. Lost knowledge is not a
>>>>> good
>>>>>> thing. Assembler may not be a way I would write a project now days but
>>>> if
>>>>>> you want to teach someone how your computers work there is only one
>>> thing
>>>>>> better. The one thing better is straight opt codes using a debugger
>> and
>>>>>> watching what is going on. Well you could also write straight binary
>>>>> files
>>>>>> like a good Fortran coder but who does that any more. That what I
>>> should
>>>>> do
>>>>>> is create the fruit basket with nothing but a hex editor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bill Cox
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 11:40 AM
>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Searching for blind programmer to start a school for blind
>>>>>> programmers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Littlefield,
>> Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Assember? Really? You must be almost as old
>>>>>>>> as me! I can't even find people who care about speed or memory usage
>>>>>>>> anymore.
>>>>>>> I love assembler. It's a great way to teach people what's going on
>>> under
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> hood and make them think about what they do. Every time I see someone
>>>>>>> reserve a 100k buffer just because, I cringe. :)
>>>>>> We must be from the same generation. I'm 47, and learned to program
>>>>>> in machine code on an 8080 based Intel board with a hex keypad and
>>>>>> some LEDs. It was a couple of years before I found out that people
>>>>>> programmed using assemblers, rather than entering hex by hand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I worry that the new generation's early experience with computers is
>>>>>> amazing games and technology so complex they could never realistically
>>>>>> hope to understand it. What's the natural path now days for kids to
>>>>>> go from playing computer games to writing them? On the old Apple IIs,
>>>>>> you just typed list instead of run, and there was all the code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill
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>
--
Thanks,
Ty
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