Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical perspective
- From: "qubit" <lauraeaves@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 11:52:12 -0600
interesting about your family. I've known people with that type of outlook.
A religious person might say God let this happen to you to force others to
rethink what is possible and important, and of course give you that old
"refiner's fire".
I think when anything happens that causes you to lose some ability or other,
the loss is hard -- I have a triple dose of this, being disabled plus blind
+ deaf without my hearing aids. But I know some people treat such setbacks
as insults, and want to blame something or someone, while others do the pity
party. I never understood the anger response -- wanting to punish someone,
and if no person was to blame, blame God. I was tempted briefly by the
"woe is me" response, but it is obvious pretty fast that that only leads to
woe.
So then get a sense of humor, laugh at the problem, make it a challenge.
It's the only way.
Happy Christmas all.
--le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 10:43 AM
Subject: RE: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
perspective
Actually I have proof that Aelf is right. My father was a deacon of a
Baptist church. One member was a blind German lady. She used to sit in
church with her head down because she could hear the music better. Most of
us had no problem talking with her. My dad couldn't go near her. He was
afraid he would say the wrong thing and up set her and yes he even to this
days fears going blind even after I lost my site he had a very hard time
dealing with it. My mother actually was the one that came in and broke the
news to me in when the military got her there because even the doctors were
to afraid to come in and talk with me about it. They thought they would
maybe upset me and send me into some depression or something. Not going to
happen. Anyway I have met more people either afraid of doing something
wrong or just they were so terrified that it might happen to them some day
they couldn't even imagine what it would be like. Yes some do pity us but
those are actually more accepting then the people I am talking about. It
took my dad about a year to get used to the fact I was blind. My oldest
brother is a lot like my dad but he hasn't been around me. He actually told
my mom if he lost his site he would kill himself. Now that is fear at a
high level.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Midence
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 11:37 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
perspective
fear us? Is that what you think? Seriously? They pity us, Elf. That,
or they admire us but for reasons that are at times insulting. We are
either incapable of doing anything at all beyond wiping our back sides
or we are capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound. We are
pitied for what we can not do and admired for the most mundane of things
such as dressing ourselves, getting to and from work, reading out loud,
dialing a telephone and, I kid you not, even for being able to
copulate. I do not wish to be crude, this is a family-friendly list
but, I once had someone ask me how I knew what I was doing if I couldn't
see how to proceed. My response was admittedly rather course and I was
never bothered by that individual again but, it disturbed me that people
viewed visual impairments as being so utterly crippling. If there is
any fear where we are concerned it is in the belief that they might hire
us because they would get sued otherwise and we turn out to be
unproductive money pits who not only request and require thousands and
thousands of dollars worth of tech but, in the case of many fools out
there, actually have the timmerity to behave as if the world somehow
owed them something and walk around with these massive chips on their
shoulders and possess the people skills of a tantrumatic sleepy
three-year-old all the while showing very little return for their
investment in us. I have said I will rethink my admittedly
narrow-minded belief about how necessary braille is to someone doing the
job I train ohers to do and have done myself but I won't just put in a
good word for someone just because they are blind or out of some sort of
cause. I am not a case worker. I'm in the commercial sector and in a
very mainstream environment. I will recommend someone because I think
they are smart enough and capable enough to do the job and because they
will add value to the company as I have striven to do. To do otherwise
is disrespectful to the person I am recommending, to the company I work
for and to other blind people in general. how would you like it if
someone told you you got a special break just because you are blind and
not because they are confident in your abilities? I, for one, am
insulted by such "lucky breaks." I want to do whatever the next guy is
doing in as close a manner to howo he is doing it as possible and I want
to do it as good as or better than he is in spite of and despite my
blindness. I don't want anything dumbed down, made smoother, less
rigorous ETC. I don't feel right accepting such slack and I won't cut
anyone else any either because I want them to do well because they
earned it and not because it was handed to them. Do I make sense? I
won't risk making blind people look bad by contributing to letting
someone in who will do bad work or who I feel will not succeed. I feel
the same way about sighted friends. If you put in a good word for
someone and they do crappy work, your credibility goes down the tubes.
If another blind person comes along who is just great and competent and
magnificent and just awesome, and I recommend them, I'll get polite
laughs and those meaningless promises and noncommittal responses you are
probably all familiar with and that person won't get hired because the
last person I recommended sucked so bad.
On another note, do try to behave less childishly, Elf. it's
undignified. You have a tendency to cut others down, belittle them,
fly off at the mouth and generally behave very impolitely. You come
across as being rather juvenile and it is difficult for others to
respect what you say when you do that.
to everyone else out here on this list:
I want to appologize to anyone I have offended by my remarks and my
opinions. i must say that having unwittingly kicked this rather fistly
little anthill has provided me with much food for thought and
introspection. For this, I am grateful to one and all. it's often
difficult to disassociate yourself from how you go about things and
allow yourself to imagine how another would tackle the same problem as
you do with equal or, dare we say it, even superior results. It is very
easy to get set in your ways and your thinking and imagine that our way
is the only way and every other way isn't as good or won't work and so
forth. Humble pie is a bitter and acrid thing. It is also hard; very
difficult to chew and even more so to swallow. the real test is in your
ability to digest it and nourish yourself thereby and grow as a person.
It is my hope thatI will do that. I still think that braille is
important and that every blind person should know at least the
rudiments. I don't, however, feel any longer that it is the only way to
be litterate as a blind person.
Incidentally, Ken, if you're still following this thread, I rather
stumbled on something you absolutely can not do without braille. it's
not something that contributes to your job or to your professional
skills or to your knowledge per se. It is, however, a thing I value
immensely. I find I can not imagine being able to read my son a bed
time story unless I do it with braille.
Be well, all. have a wonderful and safe holiday.
Alex M
The Elf wrote:
> and there sits a blind person who has an opinion that will block out
> other blind folk from a work environment. well GTH dude, your as
> bloody guilty of discrimination as the folks who fear us and will not
> hire us!
>
> no wonder blind unemployment is so high, even our Fracking own
> discriminate against us!
>
> have a F!I!N!E! day dude
> elf
> "I'll try to be NICER!
> If you, will try to be SMARTER!"
>
> "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and go
> good with bar-b-q sauce."
> - Draconis cerulean
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Midence"
> <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 7:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
> perspective
>
>
>> Hi.
>>
>> I ask people if they can read braille if they ask me if my company is
>> hiring. The reason is that the job involves fielding customer service
>> calls where you have a customer talking to you in your ear pretty
>> constantly. You have to be able to understand the layout of the
>> screens we have because a lot of the information you need for the
>> customer is in tabular form and it is written in web-based
>> applications that were not designed with accessibility in mind so,
>> navigating them with speech is iffy at best. Some of the stuff on
>> them is not picked up by the jaws find feature because it's images or,
>> because it's coded in some way that speech just doesn't grab it.
>> Braille does though, very reliably. So, when someone asks me if they
>> are hiring at my job, my first question to them is: "Can you read
>> braille quickly and listen to speech quickly? Can you read braille
>> while someone is talking in your ear and demanding instant answers at
>> the same time?"
>>
>> I have talked to other blind people who work in customer service and
>> most of the ones I have spoken with use refreshable braille in their
>> job and felt that their job would be nearly impossible to do without
>> it. They would end up having to place customers on hold repeatedly or
>> allow their attention to drift away from the conversation to listen to
>> speech output. With braille, they pan up and down and use cursor
>> routing to click on objects on the screen much the same way a mouse
>> user would and do this very very quickly. In all the years I did
>> customer service before I became a trainer, only a handful of my
>> callers even knew I was blind and that was because I told them. They
>> never heard speech in the background, they never got put on hold for
>> me to hear what Jaws was saying; it was very close to them having a
>> sighted person doing the job. So much so, that they didn't know the
>> difference. I was able to move up in my field because braille enabled
>> me to get a physical picture of the layout of screens in my head to
>> the point that I am able to accurately tell asighted person exactly
>> where to look on a screen to click on something or find some
>> information that is displayed by our system. I wouldn't be able to do
>> this with just speech because it's a bit like hearing about crossing a
>> street without vision and actually going out and doing it.
>>
>> My point is that some jobs do require braille to be done efficiently.
>> If you are working where you are interacting with just the PC and
>> don't have to listen to other conversations or, if you are in a quiet
>> area, you are OK with pure speech. If you have a loud work
>> environment and your ears are occupied with listening to a
>> conversation and your voice is occupied with responding, it is more
>> efficient for another part of your mind to be engaged in acquisition
>> of information. This is where your fingers come in.
>>
>> So, perhaps in programming, you are not asked if you can read braille
>> and it is not a prerequisite and, undoubtedly, few places in my field
>> would outright ask you if you can read it mostly because they don't
>> know to ask and might get in trouble. A lot of sighted people just
>> assume you can read braille so they don't ask. Many of the
>> restaurants where I live have braille menus, for instance, and the
>> waiters just ask me if I'd like a copy of it. I figure people who
>> hire do the same and have to be told otherwise. I ask because my
>> perspective is different. I am careful to ask when I am not the one
>> doing the hiring though. I know that I could not in good conscience
>> recommend another blind person to do a call center job at my company
>> or encourage them to apply for one if they can not use braille because
>> I would be contributing to bringing someone on board whose listening
>> skills are not 100% devoted to our customers and if they drop the
>> ball, it might close the door to other perspective blind people who
>> want to work here or, worse, make me look bad and make me unpopular
>> for putting a good word in for someone who wound up doing poorly. The
>> law probably states that I have to give them a chance if I am in a
>> position to make an official hiring decision but I would do so against
>> my better judgment. Of course, if they proved me wrong, I would be
>> ecstatic but I would find it most unlikely that they would do well.
>>
>> Alex M
>>
>>
>> On 12/22/10, Dale Leavens <dleavens@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> But surely that is the point.
>>>
>>> I too came to braille somewhat late and never was a really good braille
>>> reader nevertheless Janet and I have three braillers around here, I
>>> always
>>> had one on the corner of my desk at work for banging down notes or
>>> telephone
>>> numbers, getting correct spellings for patient names and organizing
>>> lists
>>> for placing orders or any number of other things. Nothing like the
>>> random
>>> access to bits of information offered by written notes. We label
>>> things with
>>> braille dymo tape, so convenient though we don't do it enough.
>>>
>>> Computer voice has certainly sped some things up and much recreational
>>> reading I would never do without talking books.
>>>
>>> Certainly one can get along without being able to read or write
>>> braille.
>>> remarkably large numbers of sighted people cannot read or write print
>>> adequately either and many function so well that people don't know they
>>> cannot. all that notwithstanding those who do not read braille
>>> adequately
>>> for function really cannot appreciate the value and benefit of braille
>>> literacy and those of us who do don't like to think of getting along
>>> without
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Interestingly, neither has anyone ever asked me if I use braille when
>>> applying for work. Many make assumptions that I would use a dog
>>> guide or
>>> that a spouse drives me about or that I would be counting steps, I
>>> don't
>>> think those questions have much to do with what is required.
>>>
>>> What computers have done for us more than anything else is add another
>>> channel of literacy of a sort for us. As with braille they give us a
>>> better
>>> random access to what we read than we had with tape and a currency
>>> we could
>>> never have with tape or braille and in some situations more instantly.
>>>
>>> I don't know why this debate always seems to get defensive. It is
>>> like the
>>> dog/cane thing somehow there doesn't seem to be any neutral ground.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Cc: "Bob Kennedy" <intheshop@xxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 7:55 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
>>> perspective
>>>
>>>
>>>> I agree that braille is generally a valuable skill for a blind
>>>> person to
>>>> have. I think all rehab programs should include braille
>>>> instruction, and
>>>> all blind kids should be taught braille at an early age.
>>>> Unfortunately, I
>>>> have also concluded that it is extremely difficult for someone to
>>>> become
>>>> efficient in reading braille if he or she did not learn it as a young
>>>> child -- perhaps similar to the way that languages are much harder
>>>> to reach
>>>>
>>>> fluency level when learned later in life.
>>>>
>>>> So, I read braille, but despite much practice during my late teens and
>>>> early 20s, (I lost my sight as a junior in high school), I never
>>>> achieved
>>>> a speed that made it practical to use braille except for things
>>>> like menus
>>>>
>>>> and labels. I have met many blind adults who are similarly
>>>> situated. We
>>>> have to make the best of speech or other techniques besides braille.
>>>>
>>>> Jamal
>>>>
>>>> On 12/22/2010 4:18 AM, Bob Kennedy wrote:
>>>>> Wow I didn't know there was so much passion for Braille. Having gone
>>>>> blind
>>>>> at age 12, I had to learn Braille, just later than most. Never could
>>>>> read
>>>>> fast and the careers I've had have left me with a small spot that is
>>>>> smaller
>>>>> than a full Braille cell of sensitivity on one finger.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never had a problem finding work though, and no one has ever
>>>>> asked
>>>>> me
>>>>> if I can read Braille as a part of a job interview.
>>>>>
>>>>> No need for that when I built transmissions I guess. I have been
>>>>> asked
>>>>> many
>>>>> times about my computer skills since I've left the garage business
>>>>> but
>>>>> still
>>>>> no concern for Braille.
>>>>>
>>>>> I better hope it stays that way or I'll have to get the Think Green
>>>>> people
>>>>> involved. What is the ratio now? Four pages of Braille to one of
>>>>> print?
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Sina Bahram"<sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:40 PM
>>>>> Subject: RE: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
>>>>> perspective
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What Ken said.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take care,
>>>>> Sina
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:44 PM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: RE: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
>>>>> perspective
>>>>>
>>>>> You said ,
>>>>> "Take away your tech, your electricity, your computer, your
>>>>> gadgets, your
>>>>> willing friends to read to you, hand you a greeting card
>>>>> from a friend, a recipe, a medicine bottle with a braille label on
>>>>> it,
>>>>> and
>>>>> what happens? Go to a nice restaurant with a sighted
>>>>> friend, have the waiter hand you a braille menu which they have
>>>>> gone to
>>>>> the
>>>>> trouble and expense of providing you, have that friend
>>>>> step away to go to the restroom, the waiter approach you and ask:
>>>>> "What
>>>>> will you have today?" What happens? "Sorry, can you read
>>>>> me your menu? I can't read this." Litterate or illiterate? You
>>>>> tell
>>>>> me."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You assume a lot of things in the above. I have been blind 20
>>>>> years and
>>>>> got
>>>>> one Braille Christmas card, I have only recently
>>>>> started seeing any Braille menus. If you took the tech from most
>>>>> sighted
>>>>> people they would be lost as well. I have never got one
>>>>> bottle of pills with a Braille label. Most of the Pill bottles I get
>>>>> come
>>>>> with barcodes though and read fine. As for Cards my son
>>>>> and daughter have given me audible ones. Hell I got one this year
>>>>> with
>>>>> actual letters I could feel true this is like brailed so
>>>>> don't really count. The point is Tech is here to stay and if it went
>>>>> away
>>>>> then maybe it would be worth me gaining speed with
>>>>> Braille. It is like saying you don't know how to ride a horse so you
>>>>> won't
>>>>> be able to travel more than 20 to 40 miles a day
>>>>> because you will have to walk if you don't have a car. . When I
>>>>> want to
>>>>> read a menu I download one and I do that on my Braille
>>>>> plus and or Iphone both. I actually take pictures of menu on my
>>>>> IPhone
>>>>> and
>>>>> read it that way many times. I am sorry but my brother
>>>>> has started going to restaurants in Atlanta only if they have online
>>>>> menus
>>>>> does that make him illiterate? Kids in college now
>>>>> couldn't do Calculus if you took their calculator away but I could
>>>>> does
>>>>> that
>>>>> make them lost in the world of business because they
>>>>> use a tool?
>>>>>
>>>>> I never said that my way I s the best way. What I said is to call
>>>>> them
>>>>> illiterate is asinine. If they can write and read and spell
>>>>> they are literate. You might not call them fully self sufficient
>>>>> but I
>>>>> would argue that until every written word is in Braille then
>>>>> no blind person is self sufficient when it comes to reading but
>>>>> then it
>>>>> looks like Google will fix access to text long before paper
>>>>> Braille ever catches up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>
>>>>> The funny thing is you say take your tech away and yet what you were
>>>>> talking
>>>>> about originally is reading with a Braille display.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Find yourself in a place with no new batteries for your machines, no
>>>>> power,
>>>>> access to a PC ETC. Hand you a slate and stylus or,
>>>>> heck, just a sharp pin and some paper. Instruct you to leave a
>>>>> note for
>>>>> a
>>>>> friend that you stepped out for an hour and will be back,
>>>>> and what happens?
>>>>>
>>>>> Take pride in your abilities, do. Even boast about how well your
>>>>> memory
>>>>> works, your accomplishments in programming, your
>>>>> mathematical prowess, whatever you like but, don't tell me there
>>>>> is no
>>>>> value
>>>>> in reading and that implying that if some can't
>>>>> actually interact directly with text for themselves, know that
>>>>> letters on
>>>>> that page are forming themselves into words and so forth,
>>>>> that this is an assinine thing to say. For one thing, it's rude,
>>>>> discourteous, ETC. for another, it's not true. Do as many studies
>>>>> as you like, ask as many people as you like, whatever. You are not
>>>>> illiterate because you learned to read and write as a child.
>>>>> You used print. You have some knowledge of braille. If you can't do
>>>>> grade
>>>>> II, it is probably because you chose to deny yourself
>>>>> this skill. If you can learn computer code, you can learn braille
>>>>> code
>>>>> be
>>>>> it Nemeth, computer braille, musical notation, whatever
>>>>> you like. If you can learn alternate keyboards, you can train
>>>>> your mind
>>>>> to
>>>>> learn the feel of different symbols. The only reason
>>>>> you couldn't is if your sense of touch is not working for some
>>>>> reason.
>>>>> In
>>>>> spite of this, the fact that you were taught your letters
>>>>> and how to read and write them as a child and learned them makes you
>>>>> literate. You just haven't fully transferred those skills to
>>>>> another medium because you chose to rely on tech instead of
>>>>> putting forth
>>>>> the time and effort it took to master them. There are
>>>>> those who never really truly learn their letters unless they are
>>>>> the ones
>>>>> doing the writing, output, not input. Their knowledge of
>>>>> letters is more akin to their ability to put words together in a
>>>>> spoken
>>>>> sentence. They know how to type out letters on a computer
>>>>> keyboard to get the computer to say what they want. A lot of them
>>>>> write
>>>>> ate
>>>>> when they mean eight, break when they mean brake,
>>>>> speach when they mean speech and so forth because the computer speaks
>>>>> them
>>>>> out just the same and their mind never skips a beat when
>>>>> they hear it spoken and when their friends hear them spoken from a
>>>>> screen
>>>>> reader. They can write, they can not read. ugly?
>>>>> Unyielding? Yes, the world often is. Yes. Uncomfortable? You
>>>>> tell me.
>>>>> Fact?
>>>>> Absolutely. It is immutable, uncontradictable, inarguable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry about the rant. I will stop since this has gotten off topic.
>>>>> It was never my intent to offend anyone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Alex M
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/21/10, Ken Perry<whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well I agree that Braille should be taught and is good to know. I
>>>>>> have to put my 3 cents in. I went blind at 20 and in my now 20
>>>>>> years
>>>>>> of being blind, I have only been able to learn to read Braille
>>>>>> to the
>>>>>> see dick run levels. That means I read enough to be able to code
>>>>>> Braille output
>>>>> methods
>>>>>> (i.e. My unique way of Braille scrolling on the Braille+ and
>>>>>> Icon) and
>>>>>> I
>>>>> can
>>>>>> code games like Sudoku for the same devices. I can also read labels
>>>>>> but
>>>>> if
>>>>>> you give me a Braille book be ready to age before I finish a
>>>>>> paragraph.
>>>>> Now
>>>>>> I realize if I would have learned Braille when I was young it
>>>>>> would be
>>>>> much
>>>>>> faster but I have said all this to say this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The idea that someone is illiterate because they don't read Braille
>>>>>> and
>>>>> are
>>>>>> totally blind is just stupid and asinine. I have Taken High level
>>>>>> math classes with no Knowledge of nemeth, True I would not have had
>>>>>> to use a reader if I knew nemeth then but I also could have done it
>>>>>> alone if they would have let me use the tools I can use for
>>>>>> example I
>>>>>> could do all my calculus by hand with my Calculator/ worksheet
>>>>>> called
>>>>>> xplore. It of
>>>>> course
>>>>>> is not really that accessible now that it's a windows app but
>>>>>> when it
>>>>>> was
>>>>> a
>>>>>> dos app it was awesome for doing math by hand on the computer. Yes
>>>>>> the computer did some of the work when I wanted it to but hell
>>>>>> seen a
>>>>>> sighted person take calculus without an hp48 in hand lately? Now I
>>>>>> will say when
>>>>> I
>>>>>> took Calculus I could and did do five page problems in my head. My
>>>>> teacher
>>>>>> actually insisted I do this for him once because he thought my
>>>>>> reader
>>>>>> was doing the math. Little did he know I did the stuff better
>>>>>> than he
>>>>>> could
>>>>> do
>>>>>> on paper in my head. I definitely couldn't do that now but back
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> I could. Ask Sina I am sure he has that same ability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now you say there is a difference from reading something by hand to
>>>>>> listening to it? Hell yeah the thing don't always pronounce things
>>>>>> right and you can read a hell of a lot faster and retain more when
>>>>>> listening.
>>>>>> Doubt me? Test me against anyone who can read Braille at what would
>>>>>> be considered 100% give us 10 books to read in the same amount of
>>>>>> time
>>>>>> and
>>>>> test
>>>>>> us on it. True this would really need to be done in a large
>>>>>> group to
>>>>>> make sure the people involved just were not stupid but I will
>>>>>> guarantee the person listening to the text will retain more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You say yes but what about graphics and table. Um sorry but getting
>>>>>> graphics and tables into Braille still takes translation of
>>>>>> information
>>>>> and
>>>>>> you will lose something there as well. I actually found my Calculus
>>>>>> books on tape from RFBD very well read and well described in fact
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> guy
>>>>> correct
>>>>>> the text book like 3 times that I remember while describing the
>>>>>> graphics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note I have lived in both worlds a world where I had to read and do
>>>>>> math
>>>>> on
>>>>>> paper and now one I do everything in my head or on a computer. I
>>>>>> find
>>>>> using
>>>>>> my brain a much better exercise than writing everything down. I
>>>>>> call
>>>>> paper
>>>>>> whether it be sighted paper or Braille a disability in itself. I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>> whip
>>>>>> out a book to take down a phone number I either remember it or
>>>>>> poke it
>>>>> into
>>>>>> my phone. Most of the time I remember it just because that works
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now am I saying people don't need to learn Braille no. As I started
>>>>>> out I think people should learn Braille from the beginning and even
>>>>>> if they
>>>>> lose
>>>>>> their site it's a useful tool but I fully disagree that a person is
>>>>>> illiterate just because he or she cannot read Braille well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I want to end by saying my wife who has a Kendil, and and IPad still
>>>>>> loves to listen to Audible books and find she gets more out of the
>>>>>> books when
>>>>> she
>>>>>> listens because her mind can both listen to what she is reading and
>>>>>> assimilate the information without having to do the work of actually
>>>>> reading
>>>>>> the text and if you think that doesn't make a difference again I
>>>>>> think
>>>>> some
>>>>>> studies should be done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex
>>>>>> Midence
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
>>>>>> perspective
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi, Don,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For someone like you, braille isn't a viable solution. Your case is
>>>>>> special and understandable. You can't read braille unless you can
>>>>>> feel your way across a line. About the most sensitive organ
>>>>>> remaining
>>>>>> to you short of your tongue for this purpose is probably the tip of
>>>>>> your nose and, that would be ... well ... Let's just say that audio
>>>>>> tech is a wonderful thing. We can't have folks giggling at us
>>>>>> when we
>>>>>> read, you know. =) I'm talking about kids who grew up blind and
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> two perfectly functioning index fingers (never could read with my
>>>>>> pinky, can anyone?) and a mind to go with them. They should be able
>>>>>> to use both braille and audio to good effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> alex M
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/20/10, Don Marang<donald.marang@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>> My older sister was upset at me because I was unable to learn
>>>>>>> braille!
>>>>> My
>>>>>>> remaining fingers are just too insensitive now from nerve damage
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>> endless
>>>>>>> blood tests. She has been a teacher at a blind school for at least
>>>>>>> 20
>>>>>> years
>>>>>>> and is a huge advocate for braille litercy. She even reads braille
>>>>>>> while she is driving!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don Marang
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>> real
>>>>>>> substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that
>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>> working
>>>>>>> on things that matter.
>>>>>>> Dean Kamen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> From: "Alex Midence"<alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 6:03 PM
>>>>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
>>>>>>> perspective
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Glad you liked it. I was hoping someone on this list would have
>>>>>>>> personal recollections of this time and the tech available. Neat
>>>>>>>> how there was braille output as far back as the 50's. It's a
>>>>>>>> shame
>>>>>>>> that that stuff is stil as expensive as it is. Perhaps, some day,
>>>>>>>> as happened with speech technology, blind people will see the
>>>>>>>> price
>>>>>>>> of a braille display drop to something affordable as in, under a
>>>>>>>> thousand dollars? Same for a braille printer/embosser. I am
>>>>>>>> enormously concerned at how many of the blind kids I have met
>>>>>>>> recently have poor braille reading skils and don't really seem to
>>>>>>>> care that they are bordering on illiteracy. Having something or
>>>>>>>> someone read to you is not the same as direct input from a written
>>>>>>>> document to your mind without an intermediary. In this age of
>>>>>>>> electronic texts, you would think that braille would explode in
>>>>>>>> popularity since you no longer have to fill a room with tomes
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>> stuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Alex M
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 12/20/10, Rasmussen, Lloyd<lras@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> That was fascinating. Dr. Stoffel worked at NIH for a period
>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>> he wrote that article. I could go on and on about this ancient
>>>>>>>>> technology, but had better do it off-list.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> People had produced braille from computers since the 50's. The
>>>>>>>>> first speech for a blind computer user was for Jim Willows, an
>>>>>>>>> engineer at the Lawrence-Livermore Laboratories in 1968 (letters
>>>>>>>>> and numbers played out through a digital-to-analog converter).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The context of this article ... Votrax devices had been on the
>>>>>>>>> market for several years, but the SC-01 chip was put into the
>>>>>>>>> Type
>>>>>>>>> 'n Talk in
>>>>> 1981.
>>>>>>>>> This device had built-in letter-to-sound rules, so you didn't
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> to send phonemes to it as you did the earlier V S A and VSB
>>>>>>>>> boards.
>>>>>>>>> These
>>>>> three
>>>>>>>>> devices took RS-232 data and either acted like terminals or
>>>>>>>>> interpreted terminal sequences and sent the data along through
>>>>>>>>> another serial port
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> displayed. They were not screen readers running on the computer
>>>>>>>>> whose screen was being read. It was revolutionary to think that
>>>>>>>>> you could
>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> $300 Type 'n Talk instead of a $5,000 talking terminal to
>>>>>>>>> speak the
>>>>> data
>>>>>>>>> coming from an RS-232 device. The Echo II synthesizer (using
>>>>>>>>> the T
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> technology) was added to the Apple II at about this time. By the
>>>>>>>>> end
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> 1983 there were screen readers for the Apple II and for the
>>>>>>>>> IBM PC.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I worked a little bit with the FSST-3 and the VERT terminal, and
>>>>>>>>> heard Deane Blazie demonstrate the TotalTalk at various
>>>>>>>>> conventions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Project Engineer National Library Service
>>>>>>>>> for the Blind and Physically Handicapped
>>>>>>>>> Library of Congress 202-707-0535
>>>>>>>>> http://www.loc.gov/nls
>>>>>>>>> The preceding opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect
>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the Library of Congress, NLS.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex
>>>>> Midence
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 3:24 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: programmingblind
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
>>>>>> perspective
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi, all..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I thought this was rather interesting. It is an article
>>>>>>>>> written in
>>>>>>>>> 1982 about some of the techniques used back then to write screne
>>>>> readers
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> "talking terminals" as they called them. I was struck by some of
>>>>>>>>> the predictions the author made with regard to the future,
>>>>>>>>> some of
>>>>>>>>> wich
>>>>> came
>>>>>>>>> true and others which did not. There was also a very interesting
>>>>>> section
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> speech synthesis and how to get the hardware and software to do
>>>>>>>>> many of the things we take for granted nowadays like starting and
>>>>>>>>> stopping speech, repeating previously spoken text, deciding
>>>>>>>>> what to
>>>>>>>>> say as an acronym
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> what to speak as a word, punctuation levels and so forth. It was
>>>>>>>>> fascinating stuff.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
http://web.archive.org/web/20060625225004/http://www.edstoffel.com/david/tal
>>>>>
>>>>>> kingterminals.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh yeah, and get a load of the prices for that stuff! Keep in
>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> in 1980's money too. Put like a 33% markup on it and you might
>>>>>>>>> approximate what it would cost in today's money.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Alex M
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>> __________
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