Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical perspective

  • From: "Jacob Kruger" <jacobk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 08:25:30 +0200

Depression on the left inner forearm, and positivity on the right inner forearm - my version of yin-yang/balance, and part of the idea is that they're matched to standard letters so it also means can show sighties what braille really looks like - another one of my pseudo-awareness thingies.
The tattoos themselves are done slightly deeper than standard, and my tattoo artist (who's done all my other tattoos as well in the old days) reckons he also used ink that has slightly bigger particles in it - basically a form of pseudo-scar tissue invoking/emulation, and they stand out a bit more/less at different times, and while not perfect, it's partly the idea - still said want to get what they call egyptian tribal (thick dark lines) eyes put on the back of my hands, since they are my eyes...LOL! 

Stay well

Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
'...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...'
----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble" <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical perspective 



I can see the use for braille in math doing those long formulas.
And me bit, what are the 2 tattoos and what keeps them raised?

At 02:06 AM 12/23/2010, you wrote:
Ok, while I also don't personally use braille for anything more than labelling things, and while I can literally write braille faster with a slate and stylus than I can generally read it, and while I can only read basic braille, I do actually have braille tattoos inside both forearms - and they're done so that they stand out a bit. 

Honest truth is how many sighties write things physically nowadays...?
Apart from notes, etc., I honestly don't think I wrote too much using a pen on a piece of paper 5 years ago, when was still sighted, so even then, I pretty much did/handled everything on electronic devices/units, but during my adaptation process in 2006, I still learnt at least basic braille, and during at least one power failure, I played solitaire using braille cards, so will also say that while nothing is necessarily more important than anything else, maybe, at least for some people, all things have their time/place. 

Stay well

Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
'...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...'

----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical perspective 



Ken,
I didn't mean this to be personal and I don't deny the benefits of technology. I bought my first HP125 with speech to assist my practice in 1982 when I couldn't really afford it and began programming because there really weren't the applications back then for it. I also keep an address book on my phone and of course I don't carry my notes about with me any more than do my sighted colleagues. I take my notebook computer traveling with me where ever I go and sometimes even a little note recorder though I prefer a small slate and paper.
This discussion always seems to get personal and defensive. As I said I am not a really good braille reader but sure glad I am a functional braille user.
What your buddy cannot do technologically isn't a discussion of braille use. It is a technologically illiterate presumably in a situation where that disadvantages him. That is not the same thing. I worked with many technologically disadvantaged persons, with increasing use of PDF and other non screen reader friendly applications in the Health Industry I was often technologically disadvantaged and braille was of no benefit to me there either. these are not the same issues. 


----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:16 AM
Subject: RE: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical perspective
You are wrong those of us who read Braille at a low level totally agree that reading Braille would be nice. What offends me though is people jumping the 
shark and calling anyone who can't read a story or a menu fast enough to
order illiterate. As I said in my first email I agree that Braille should be taught in school and those who have the ability to learn at a young age 
should but not knowing how to read Braille at a fast enough page to read
books is not an end all. I don't feel robbed because I can't. Whereas I would feel robbed if I couldn't read text in the sighted world as a sighted person. It's a total different ball game. You have signs in the sighted 
world.  Braille signs are not only hard to find but when you find them
sometimes they are just stupid I found a Braille sign on a fire hydrant once 
that said it was a fire hydrant.  You mentioned taking notes.  I have 3
devices that instantly turn on if I need them and can take notes not only 
faster than I could with a brailler but I could search and call them up
faster. For that matter one of the devices I edit notes on my server with in almost any place because its 3G so do you carry those volumes of notes 
around with you in Braille?  That would be a site.  All I am saying is I
agree that Braille is good to learn. So that makes a middle ground I do not 
agree that I lose greatly by not knowing how to read Braille at a level
where I can read books.

I tell you what though.  I know a  person that I work with that still to
this day cannot use a computer. He is trying to learn right now. I find 
him at a much larger disadvantage and he is a Braille expert.  He uses a
Braille note and has no idea of things he could do if he understood
technology. I find him at a much larger disadvantage than I find myself. You can't individually shop without getting help if you know only Braille 
but you can if you know technology.  You can't create documents for the
sighted world if you know only Braille but you can with technology. Braille doesn't help you if you have to create those pill labels for other customers but technology does. I find that technology is a much more important tool than Braille when interacting with the rest of the world. Braille has made 
it possible for the blind to get started and to self organize while
Technology has opened the world like nothing else has for blind people.
Again I will finish this by saying I believe Braille should be taught but 
it's time to stop telling our kids they are something less if they don't
read at the rate needed to read books in Braille. They are not something less they are something different. Even the sighted world is starting to have to come to terms with what the new technology age is bringing our kids into. It used to be you could not be a programmer in the sighted world if you cannot learn a language. Not so with programming languages like scratch kids are learning to code visually. When coding languages get to the point where you can tell the computer what to do and it will do it and create an 
application for others to use will they no longer be programmers.     No
they will be programmers in a different way. We have to use the tools that 
give us the best life style possible and Braille is only a very small
portion of that life style unless you have multiple disabilities.

Ken




-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 8:55 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
perspective

But surely that is the point.

I too came to braille somewhat late and never was a really good braille
reader nevertheless Janet and I have three braillers around here, I always had one on the corner of my desk at work for banging down notes or telephone
numbers, getting correct spellings for patient names and organizing lists for placing orders or any number of other things. Nothing like the random access to bits of information offered by written notes. We label things with 

braille dymo tape, so convenient though we don't do it enough.

Computer voice has certainly sped some things up and much recreational
reading I would never do without talking books.

Certainly one can get along without being able to read or write braille.
remarkably large numbers of sighted people cannot read or write print
adequately either and many function so well that people don't know they
cannot. all that notwithstanding those who do not read braille adequately 
for function really cannot appreciate the value and benefit of braille
literacy and those of us who do don't like to think of getting along without 

it.

Interestingly, neither has anyone ever asked me if I use braille when
applying for work. Many make assumptions that I would use a dog guide or
that a spouse drives me about or that I would be counting steps, I don't
think those questions have much to do with what is required.

What computers have done for us more than anything else is add another
channel of literacy of a sort for us. As with braille they give us a better random access to what we read than we had with tape and a currency we could 
never have with tape or braille and in some situations more instantly.
I don't know why this debate always seems to get defensive. It is like the 
dog/cane thing somehow there doesn't seem to be any neutral ground.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Bob Kennedy" <intheshop@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
perspective
I agree that braille is generally a valuable skill for a blind person to have. I think all rehab programs should include braille instruction, and all blind kids should be taught braille at an early age. Unfortunately, I have also concluded that it is extremely difficult for someone to become 
efficient in reading braille if he or she did not learn it as a young
child -- perhaps similar to the way that languages are much harder to reach 


fluency level when learned later in life.

So, I read braille, but despite much practice during my late teens and
early 20s, (I lost my sight as a junior in high school), I never achieved a speed that made it practical to use braille except for things like menus
and labels. I have met many blind adults who are similarly situated. We 
have to make the best of speech or other techniques besides braille.

Jamal

On 12/22/2010 4:18 AM, Bob Kennedy wrote:

Wow I didn't know there was so much passion for Braille.  Having gone
blind
at age 12, I had to learn Braille, just later than most.  Never could
read
fast and the careers I've had have left me with a small spot that is
smaller
than a full Braille cell of sensitivity on one finger.
I've never had a problem finding work though, and no one has ever asked 
me
if I can read Braille as a part of a job interview.
No need for that when I built transmissions I guess. I have been asked 
many
times about my computer skills since I've left the garage business but
still
no concern for Braille.

I better hope it stays that way or I'll have to get the Think Green
people
involved. What is the ratio now? Four pages of Braille to one of print? 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sina Bahram"<sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:40 PM
Subject: RE: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
perspective


What Ken said.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:44 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
perspective

You said ,
"Take away your tech, your electricity, your computer, your gadgets, your 
willing friends to read to you, hand you a greeting card
from a friend, a recipe, a medicine bottle with a braille label on it,
and
what happens?  Go to a nice restaurant with a sighted
friend, have the waiter hand you a braille menu which they have gone to 
the
trouble and expense of providing you, have that friend
step away to go to the restroom, the waiter approach you and ask: "What 
will you have today?"  What happens?  "Sorry, can you read
me your menu?  I can't read this."  Litterate or illiterate?  You tell
me."
You assume a lot of things in the above. I have been blind 20 years and 
got
one Braille Christmas card,  I have only recently
started seeing any Braille menus. If you took the tech from most sighted 
people they would be lost as well.  I have never got one
bottle of pills with a Braille label.  Most of the Pill bottles I get
come
with barcodes though and read fine.  As for Cards  my son
and daughter have given me audible ones. Hell I got one this year with 
actual letters I could feel true this is like brailed so
don't really count.  The point is Tech is here to stay and if it went
away
then maybe it would be worth me gaining speed with
Braille.  It is like saying you don't know how to ride a horse so you
won't
be able to travel more than 20 to 40  miles  a day
because you will have to walk if you don't have a car. . When I want to 
read a menu I download one and I do that on my Braille
plus and or Iphone both. I actually take pictures of menu on my IPhone 
and
read it that way many times.  I am sorry but my brother
has started going to restaurants in Atlanta only if they have online
menus
does that make him illiterate? Kids in college now
couldn't do Calculus if you took their calculator away but I could does 
that
make them lost in the world of business  because they
use a tool?
I never said that my way I s the best way. What I said is to call them 
illiterate is asinine.  If they can write and read and spell
they are literate. You might not call them fully self sufficient but I 
would argue that until every written word is in Braille then
no blind person is self sufficient when it comes to reading but then it 
looks like Google will fix access to text long before paper
Braille ever catches up.

Ken

The funny thing is you say take your tech away and yet what you were
talking
about originally is reading with a Braille display.







Find yourself in a place with no new batteries for your machines, no
power,
access to a PC ETC.  Hand you a slate and stylus or,
heck, just a sharp pin and some paper. Instruct you to leave a note for 
a
friend that you stepped out for an hour and will be back,
and what happens?
Take pride in your abilities, do. Even boast about how well your memory 
works, your accomplishments in programming, your
mathematical prowess, whatever you like but, don't tell me there is no
value
in reading and that implying that if some can't
actually interact directly with text for themselves, know that letters on 
that page are forming themselves into words and so forth,
that this is an assinine thing to say.  For one thing, it's rude,
discourteous, ETC. for another, it's not true.  Do as many studies
as you like, ask as many people as you like, whatever.  You are not
illiterate because you learned to read and write as a child.
You used print.  You have some knowledge of braille.  If you can't do
grade
II, it is probably because you chose to deny yourself
this skill. If you can learn computer code, you can learn braille code 
be
it Nemeth, computer braille, musical notation, whatever
you like. If you can learn alternate keyboards, you can train your mind 
to
learn the feel of different symbols.  The only reason
you couldn't is if your sense of touch is not working for some reason.
In
spite of this, the fact that you were taught your letters
and how to read and write them as a child and learned them makes you
literate.  You just haven't fully transferred those skills to
another medium because you chose to rely on tech instead of putting forth 
the time and effort it took to master them.  There are
those who never really truly learn their letters unless they are the ones 
doing the writing, output, not input.  Their knowledge of
letters is more akin to their ability to put words together in a spoken 
sentence.  They know how to type out letters on a computer
keyboard to get the computer to say what they want. A lot of them write 
ate
when they mean eight, break when they mean brake,
speach when they mean speech and so forth because the computer speaks
them
out just the same and their mind never skips a beat when
they hear it spoken and when their friends hear them spoken from a screen 
reader.  They can write, they can not read.  ugly?
Unyielding? Yes, the world often is. Yes. Uncomfortable? You tell me. 
Fact?
Absolutely.  It is immutable, uncontradictable, inarguable.

Sorry about the rant.  I will stop since this has gotten off topic.
It was never my intent to offend anyone.

Regards,
Alex M

On 12/21/10, Ken Perry<whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  wrote:


Well I agree that Braille should be taught and is good to know.  I
have to put my 3 cents in.  I went blind at 20 and in my now 20 years
of being blind, I have only been able to learn to read Braille to the 
see dick run levels.  That means I read enough to be able to code
Braille output

methods
(i.e. My unique way of Braille scrolling on the Braille+ and Icon) and 
I

can

code games like Sudoku for the same devices.  I can also read labels
but

if
you give me a Braille book be ready to age before I finish a paragraph. 
Now
I realize if I would have learned Braille when I was young it would be 
much

faster but I have said all this to say this.

The idea that someone is illiterate because they don't read Braille
and

are

totally blind is just stupid and asinine.  I have Taken High level
math classes with no Knowledge of nemeth,  True I would not have had
to use a reader if I knew nemeth then but I also could have done it
alone if they would have let me use the tools I can use for example I
could do all my calculus by hand with my Calculator/ worksheet called
xplore.  It  of

course

is not really that accessible now that it's a windows app but when it
was

a

dos app it was awesome for doing math by hand on the computer.  Yes
the computer did some of the work when I wanted it to but hell seen a
sighted person take calculus without an hp48 in hand lately?  Now I
will say when

I

took Calculus I could and did do five page problems in my head.  My

teacher

actually insisted I do this for him once because he thought my reader
was doing the math. Little did he know I did the stuff better than he 
could

do

on paper in my head.  I definitely couldn't do that now but back then
I could.  Ask Sina I am sure he has that same ability.

Now you say there is a difference from reading something by hand to
listening to it?  Hell yeah the thing don't always pronounce things
right and you can read a hell of a lot faster and retain more when
listening.
Doubt me?  Test me against anyone who can read Braille at what would
be considered 100% give us 10 books to read in the same amount of time 
and

test

us on it.  True this would really need to be done in a large group to
make sure the people involved just were not stupid but I will
guarantee the person listening to the text will retain more.

You say yes but what about graphics and table.  Um sorry but getting
graphics and tables into Braille still takes translation of
information

and

you will lose something there as well.  I actually found my Calculus
books on tape from RFBD very well read and well described in fact the
guy

correct

the text book like 3 times that I remember while describing the
graphics.

Note I have lived in both worlds a world where I had to read and do
math

on
paper and now one I do everything in my head or on a computer. I find 
using

my brain a much better exercise than writing everything down.  I call

paper

whether it be sighted paper or Braille a disability in itself.  I
don't

whip
out a book to take down a phone number I either remember it or poke it 
into

my phone.  Most of the time I remember it just because that works for
me.

Now am I saying people don't need to learn Braille no.  As I started
out I think people should learn Braille  from the beginning and even
if they

lose

their site it's a useful tool but I fully disagree that a person is
illiterate just because he or she cannot read Braille well.

I want to end by saying my wife who has a Kendil, and and IPad still
loves to listen to Audible books and find she gets more out of the
books when

she

listens because her mind can both listen to what she is reading and
assimilate the information without having to do the work of actually

reading
the text and if you think that doesn't make a difference again I think 
some

studies should be done.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex
Midence
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:14 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
perspective

Hi, Don,

For someone like you, braille isn't a viable solution.  Your case is
special and understandable.  You can't read braille unless you can
feel your way across a line. About the most sensitive organ remaining 
to you short of your tongue for this purpose is probably the tip of
your nose and, that would be ... well ... Let's just say that audio
tech is a wonderful thing. We can't have folks giggling at us when we read, you know. =) I'm talking about kids who grew up blind and have 
two perfectly functioning index fingers (never could read with my
pinky, can anyone?) and a mind to go with them.  They should be able
to use both braille and audio to good effect.

alex M

On 12/20/10, Don Marang<donald.marang@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
My older sister was upset at me because I was unable to learn braille! 
My

remaining fingers are just too insensitive now from nerve damage and

endless

blood tests.  She has been a teacher at a blind school for at least
20

years

and is a huge advocate for braille litercy.  She even reads braille
while she is driving!

Don Marang

There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of
any

real

substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am

working

on things that matter.
Dean Kamen


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Alex Midence"<alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 6:03 PM
To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
perspective


Glad you liked it.  I was hoping someone on this list would have
personal recollections of this time and the tech available.  Neat
how there was braille output as far back as the 50's.  It's a shame
that that stuff is stil as expensive as it is.  Perhaps, some day,
as happened with speech technology, blind people will see the price
of a braille display drop to something affordable as in, under a
thousand dollars?  Same for a braille printer/embosser.  I am
enormously concerned at how many of the blind kids I have met
recently have poor braille reading skils and don't really seem to
care that they are bordering on illiteracy.  Having something or
someone read to you is not the same as direct input from a written
document to your mind without an intermediary.  In this age of
electronic texts, you would think that braille would explode in
popularity since you no longer have to fill a room with tomes of the 
stuff.

Alex M

On 12/20/10, Rasmussen, Lloyd<lras@xxxxxxx>  wrote:
That was fascinating. Dr. Stoffel worked at NIH for a period after 
he wrote that article.  I could go on and on about this ancient
technology, but had better do it off-list.

People had produced braille from computers since the 50's.  The
first speech for a blind computer user was for Jim Willows, an
engineer  at the Lawrence-Livermore Laboratories in 1968 (letters
and numbers played out through a digital-to-analog converter).

The context of this article ...  Votrax devices had been on the
market for several years, but the SC-01 chip was put into the Type
'n Talk in

1981.

This device had built-in letter-to-sound rules, so you didn't have
to send phonemes to it as you did the earlier V S A and VSB boards. 
These

three

devices took RS-232 data and either acted like terminals or
interpreted terminal sequences and sent the data along through
another serial port

to


be
displayed.  They were not screen readers running on the computer
whose screen was being read.  It was revolutionary to think that
you could

buy

a
$300 Type 'n Talk instead of a $5,000 talking terminal to speak the 
data
coming from an RS-232 device. The Echo II synthesizer (using the T 
I
technology) was added to the Apple II at about this time.  By the
end

of
1983 there were screen readers for the Apple II and for the IBM PC. 

I worked a little bit with the FSST-3 and the VERT terminal, and
heard Deane Blazie demonstrate the TotalTalk at various
conventions.



Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Project Engineer National Library Service
for the Blind and Physically Handicapped
Library of Congress   202-707-0535
http://www.loc.gov/nls
The preceding opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those

of

the Library of Congress, NLS.


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex

Midence

Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 3:24 PM
To: programmingblind
Subject: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical

perspective


Hi, all..
I thought this was rather interesting. It is an article written in 
1982 about some of the techniques used back then to write screne

readers

or
"talking terminals" as they called them.  I was struck by some of
the predictions the author made with regard to the future, some of
wich

came

true and others which did not.  There was also a very interesting

section


on
speech synthesis and how to get the hardware and software to do
many of the things we take for granted nowadays like starting and
stopping speech, repeating previously spoken text, deciding what to 
say as an acronym

and

what to speak as a word, punctuation levels and so forth.  It was
fascinating stuff.


http://web.archive.org/web/20060625225004/http://www.edstoffel.com/david/tal

kingterminals.html
Oh yeah, and get a load of the prices for that stuff! Keep in mind 
that

was
in 1980's money too.  Put like a 33% markup on it and you might
approximate what it would cost in today's money.

Alex M
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