Like said in other mail - maybe should have also changed subject line - was that even when sighted, as a web developer, I created the functionality/interactive design of web apps, and then helped graphical designers to add their look and feel components, and, in any case as far as I'm concerned, the basics of web page layout are perfectly handleable/doable, but, again, I suppose that might have had something to do with the fact that I used to do this when sighted. Fact is that webpages are also meant to automatically adapt/adjust to various browsers, screen resolutions, window sizes, etc., so unless you do something like hard code certain design aspects, layout really isn't much of an issue in webpage layout/web apps. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' ----- Original Message ----- From: Homme, James To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 6:28 PM Subject: RE: Programming Layouts While Blind Hi, I'm asking to change the subject of this since we have started to include web design. I think that some of the discussion applies in that space, too. Coding CSS using math is one thing. Making it look nice is another. Jim Jim Homme, Usability Services, Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of E.J. Zufelt Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:11 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders? Agreed, I would never use my time to try to design a UI. I consider it an inefficient use of resources. I'm not saying that this is necessarily true for all blind programmers, but expect that it is generally true. Within the Drupal community I work closely with designers, themeres (those who implement theme into code), user experience experts, and developers to make sure that we get things done correctly. Many people have skills that cross these different categories, but generally speaking people have specific areas in which their skills are best used. Everett Zufelt http://zufelt.ca Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ezufelt View my LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt On 2010-10-13, at 12:03 PM, Homme, James wrote: Hi, Something else to consider has almost been mentioned here. In the world I work in, we have programmers and user interface designers. The programmers, who are sighted, depend on the user interface designers to help them get the look and feel just right. So this is not as much of a blind thing as you think it might be. Jim Jim Homme, Usability Services, Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:55 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders? Importance: Low That or give the project to the assistant to do and go on with other things. Even if an assistant is hired, if they don't know the programming graphical user interface standards of your employer, you could be out of work real fast and for good cause. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Client Services Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:47 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders? Hi- I am very fascinated by this conversation. In my opinion, GUIs can be handled by blind people with a human assistant giving feedback on look and layout. So, don't turn away the project, hire an assistant. I have found that it is hard for me to conceptualize a look and layout. But if somebody tells me exactly how they want something designed, it is rather straight forward. H.R. Soltani From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels Roos Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:08 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders? This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again with a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic. I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI is a massive task in all fairness. I didn't catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages. Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's a service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's worth. We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas where having no or little sight might aid you! One particular small project I worked on while studying at university springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in after we did our presentation and basically told the class that we really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and hours on the little GUI side of the software. It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,, areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact . It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all. And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle. Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves and our value to a software development shop developing for the general public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years experience as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less time and with less effort. My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in programming and computer science where visually impaired people can excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever increasingly important part. Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a company. Kerneels On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote: I would advise spending time on web development with java on the server side. Either that or headless java development such as web services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong java developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills in an API, swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead, I can't push it into a project here because it is not an accepted technology by our enterprise architects. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO Hi Jay, Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on Swing, SWT, or web? Thanks. Jim Jim Homme, Usability Services, Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring java developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble with is finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there are certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a lot of java development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to using web based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining interest in using swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on swing accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of us who still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO" <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO Hi Listers, I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing government contracts in the United States would have some affect on all this. I have asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much because there is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java programmer so maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use Struts at my building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool of myself, it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin). Susie Stanzel -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol or hound,or pummel, or... elf Moderator, Blind Access Help Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises Specialists in customized computers and peripherals - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! www.alacorncomputer.com proprietor, The Grab Bag, for blind computer users and programmers http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the voice of reason has made itself known. Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into actually not abandoning it. Take care, Sina ________________________________ From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away. It's time to get people to get active and start emailing and calling them till they do support it. If we stay away we lose what accessibility was there. Ken From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm Dragon Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO Hi, I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun. It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software decisions, to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get rid of Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage to win their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the open source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still alive and well after all. Storm -- Registered Linux user number 508465: http://counter.li.org/ My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon: http://www.stormdragon.us/ Get yourself a Frostbox: http://www.frostbitesystems.com/ On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote: oh know, i wish its just a rumor. if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said. regards, prateek agarwal. On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to discontinue support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative is planned). I would be glad to be convinced otherwise. If anyone has information regarding this topic, please share. Jamal __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then delete it. 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