Re: Notice of list unification, and FAQ with more information
- From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:55:22 -0600
Call me pedantic, but...
1) I love the veil of secrecy that went on with this. Jeff said "hey
guys, we're not merging," and left handing over the ownership off to one
of his goons (who has finally named himself).
2) No one was told of any merging after Jeff said no, besides on the
program-l list where the coin was flipped; previously we had no
knowledge of anything happening there and it was mentioned here, now it
just flipped and these so-called questions could be the figment of
someone's imagenation for all we know.
3) How were these questions raised, if the owner wasn't mentioned? I
remember asking a couple of times, and I was not the only one.
For the record, I'm not against the merge. I think it could help, but I
have my doubts about it. I do find the way this has gone down rather
irritating though; three people ultimately had the decision to make, one
of whom wasn't an admin or anything on either of the lists. If things
are going to keep proceeding in this direction, I don't think it says
much for the future management of the all-new shiny unified list to be.
This has the mark of egos-to-be-left-in-tact, since we're not merging
(what admittedly makes sense) program-l into this list, since as was
already pointed out, programmingblind has double the traffic. The only
reason for this? The current owner of the list wishes to keep his list
in tact. So now that we've got a new admin (Thanks for announcing
yourself), and the previous one has thrown in the towel and gave up, I
guess we don't have much to say on the topic, or there's not to much to
be said.
On 9/30/2011 12:28 PM, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
This message is to notify subscribers of this list,
ProgrammingBlind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, that in about a week, probably over
the weekend of October 7, we will be creating a unified list with
PROGRAM-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx I have listened carefully to discussions of
list merging on both ProgrammingBlind and Program-L. As the current
list owner of ProgrammingBlind, I have tried to address concerns, and
answer common questions in an FAQ-format below. I ask for your
cooperation in helping the unification to go as smoothly as possible.
Q. For what reasons are the lists being unified?
A.
* Common purpose. Both ProgrammingBlind and PROGRAM-L have
essentially the same purpose: to discuss and share information on
issues of particular interest to computer programmers who are blind or
visually impaired. Such issues relate to various programming
languages, as opposed to other lists that are focused on a single
language like JAWSScripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx or Scripting@xxxxxxxxxxx
(focused on the scripting languages of the JAWS or Window-Eyes screen
readers, respectively). This common purpose leads to other reasons
for unification, as subsequently explained.
* Increased pool of advice. With a unified list, more people will be
available to help someone solve a programming or accessibility problem
that he or she is encountering. The need for pooling advice is now
stronger than ever because of accelerated changes in the field of
software development, and the corresponding challenge of keeping up as
blind programmers. For example, when the 2008 edition of Visual
Studio was released (the leading IDE for Microsoft technologies), we
had good access with multiple screen readers. Over a year after the
2010 edition of Visual Studio, however, there is only partial access
with the latest version of JAWS (the most expensive screen reader)
when combined with the commercial version of that IDE (this JAWS
support is lacking in the free, Express editions of VS 2010). As
another example, apps in the mobile space have been growing at an
explosive rate in the last few years, yet our ability to participate
there is seriously limited. The iOS development environment is
generally not independently accessible; The Android platform has
severe gaps in accessibility infrastructure; Windows Phone 7 still
has no accessibility API.
* Decreased redundancy. With a unified list, people will no longer
have to cross post to reach others on both lists, thereby eliminating
duplicate messages that many of us receive because we feel a need to
be connected to expertise on both lists.
Q. Why is ProgrammingBlind being merged into Program-L rather than
vice versa? According to calculations made by someone on this list,
ProgrammingBlind currently has about 10 times the traffic of
Program-L, so would it not make sense for the merger direction to be
the other way? Also, ProgrammingBlind is a more descriptive name than
Program-L, so is that not a better name for a unified list?
A. These points were raised with the list owner of Program-L, George
Bell, but he prefers to maintain the name of the list he started.
Overall, these are relatively minor, administrative factors that are
outweighed by the benefits of unification. There are about 350
ProgrammingBlind subscribers, and the management of FreeLists.org will
help us merge the lists effectively. ProgrammingBlind is more
descriptive as a name, but there is nothing offensive about Program-L,
and its more generic nature could arguably make sighted supporters of
our issues feel more welcome.
Q. Who is George Bell? Should a list for blind programmers be owned
by a sighted person?
A. Although a legitimate concern, George should not be disqualified
for having sight in this context. He has many years of experience in
the adaptive technology field, running a consumer-oriented adaptive
technology company called Techno-Vision Systems in the United Kingdom,
which is located on the web at
http://www.techno-vision.co.uk/
George is also a programmer, himself, and knows a lot about braille.
Moderating an email discussion list is mainly an administrative
function. The list is not intended to be a democratic organization of
blind people with elections, resolutions, budget allocations, etc.
The barrier to entry is trivial for anyone else who would like to
start an alternate list if moderation by George seems unsatisfactory,
e.g., via FreeLists, Yahoo Groups, or Google Groups. George has
successfully moderated lists in our field for years, including
Program-L, GUISpeak, and Program-Java.
Q. Will all programming languages be valid topics of discussion on
the unified list?
A. Yes. In direct communication with me, George has agreed to
welcome discussion of any programming language, including Java. The
Program-Java list would remain for those who want to focus on that
language via a dedicated list.
Q. Will programmers of all skill levels be welcome on the unified list?
A. Yes. George has been clear that questions from beginning to
advanced programmers are welcome, so long as the tone is professional
and polite.
Q. Will casual conversation be permitted on the unified list?
A. Yes. George and others on Program-L have a sense of humor, though
currently it may be more British-oriented. <grin> List subscribers,
however, are still expected to be respectful of the time of others so
that the list can be productive for everyone. Common rules of list
etiquette will apply, such as avoiding personal insults, speculation
without evidence, "me, too" messages, etc. The goal is to keep the
signal to noise ratio high, especially since the total volume of
messages may increase.
Q. Will I have to do anything to join the unified list?
A. No. This should be handled automatically for you by the list
owners and FreeLists.org management. It is possible that minor
glitches will occur, as with any administrative process, but we will
work to resolve those as rapidly as possible. Your patience and
cooperation is requested during the transition. Naturally, filters
you may have set up in your email client may need to be adjusted, but
this should not be burdensome, especially for people who are
technically inclined. Several years ago, the list was successfully
transitioned from BlindProgramming.com to FreeLists.org. This
transition within the FreeLists.org domain should be easier.
Q. Is it true that some active members of the ProgrammingBlind list
unsubscribed because a merger was previously announced? Will this
risk losing more people?
A. Three people did publicly unsubscribe previously. I have been in
touch with two of them, who say they are now willing to try the
unified list. We all need to make our own judgments about the value
we get from a combination of lists. There are trade-offs, so all
people cannot always be satisfied. I have outreached individually to
others with concerns as well.
Q. If I do not wish to join the unified list, how do I unsubscribe
from this list? Will ProgrammingBlind be continued?
A. The ProgrammingBlind list will be terminated after the merger is
complete, since the purpose is to create a single, unified community.
You can unsubscribe from ProgrammingBlind or Program-L via the
FreeLists.org web site. It is up to you, of course, but I ask that
you give the unified list a try before deciding to quit in advance.
If you do encounter problems, please let us know, but do so in a
constructive fashion. We are doing this, not out of whim or for
power, but for the best, long term interests of the blind programming
community.
Jamal
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--
Take care,
Ty
Web: http://tds-solutions.net
The Aspen project: a light-weight barebones mud engine
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
Sent from my toaster.
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