RE: .Net Framework Documentation
- From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:26:51 -0400
Hi,
And when you turn it on, you just read and it works.
Jim
Jim Homme,
Usability Services,
Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here.
Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:23 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
Hi Katherine,
That's Word's Header and Footer view. Yep. JAWS can access it if you turn it on.
Jim
Jim Homme,
Usability Services,
Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here.
Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of katherine Moss
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 5:41 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
Oh Okay thanks for the information. I mean that like when you are writing a
paper in MLA style, and you have the running header. You know how that
works, where one line of text is inserted automatically in every page of the
document?
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 7:28 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
Hi Katherine,
If by headers you mean table headers, Word has no equivalent for them. If by
headers you mean header styles, they have to actually be the styles named
heading 1 through heading 9. JAWS can access them using quick keys. If by
headers you mean page headers, you have to switch Word to header and footer
view.
Jim
Jim Homme,
Usability Services,
Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:38 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
I can't even access the headers in word, so never mind that.
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 10:20 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
I am speaking only of the interface. Not the languages the web is written
in. When it comes right down to it we do not interface with php, pearl,
asp. We interface with html weather it is served by Javascript or just a
clean page of html. The html is what needs to have a blind friendly UI
stuck on the front. That can mean ear cons like system access has or voice
schema's like jaws but those seem to be more candy than actual helpful
information.
You say Firefox and Internet Explorer are very accessible I say go to
www.gmail.com a very accessible site and delete 246 emails. It took me
forever. My wife had over 1000 and was finished in less than 5 minutes.
I don't even know how long it took her because she was done before I could
time her. If I am in outlook and want to delete all the mails from one
email list I do a quick search and ctrl-a and delete they are gone. . Try
that on a web interface. For the sighted user many of these web interfaces
look exactly like a regular application. To us they look like nasty web
rather than easy to use dialogs. Another example of what I am talking about
is the Google Rss reader or Google docs. My sited friends that code with me
at work all use Google Rss now because it's an easy way for them to read
their news at work home or on the go with their Cell phone. To them using
Google Rss is as easy as me using the rss groups I have set up in Outlook or
other applications designed for rss because they can act on the groups with
drags of their mouse right on the web as if it was a true list try that
with a screen reader. Same for Google docs. Sure you can use it but I
challenge you to go make a document on google docs set up a table put some
items in the table and then put headers before and after the table. See how
long that takes you even if you can get it done over how long it would take
you in something like word.
What I am saying in short is the web right now might be accessible but it
sure is a bitch to use in many cases.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 8:14 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
I mean firefox and internet explorer are both very accessible. What do you
mean that we need to find out a whole new way to work the web for the blind.
You mean to drop the technology that we've been used to for years? Do you
mean no more PHP, no more Perl, no more ASP.net?
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:44 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
I will second some of what people are saying here. MSDN is very nice
online. The problem is to this day no screen reader has made the web as
easy to use for the blind as it is for the sited. A new way to deal with
the web has to be designed and I am not even sure what that new way is but I
think that is where we have to be putting all our power. Making the web as
accessible as regular programs because that is where regular programs are
going. We should be able to use Google docs as simply as opening Word same
for gmail my wife doesn't even use a mail client any longer because the web
clients are getting so good. You sure the hell couldn't prove that to me
but I don't blame the web apps as much as I do all the screen readers and I
mean all. If people have ideas on how to make a better web browser
interface for the blind please write me and tell me I have several projects
I am working on that this information would come in handy.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:09 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
MSDN's a beautiful thing, so why don't they make it beautiful for all who
want to use it?
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:26 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
When I was doing more .Net related work with C#, I typically fired up
a browser and kept it at msdn.com. I pretty much had entered class
names, then did a linear search (via a text find command) for members
(fields, properties, methods, parent/sub classes, etc).
It would have been nice to get this directly from the IDE, but it's
just one extra step. VS uses an embeded IE web view, it works, but
Jaws has some issues switching in and out of virtual buffering.
On 8/7/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi: I tend to use the Online MSDN Class Library documentation. Once you
> learn to navigate Google to find the ones you want they are pretty
helpful.
> They are mostely reference materials, not tutorials, but they do contain
> examples. They do give the necessary information on a class methods and
> procedures with the available parameters, events and enumerations with
some
> examples.
> The examples do tend to be overly complex at times but if you know what a
> class is you can read what each class does, what it's methods and
Properties
> do and see an example or 2 of how to use them. To find a tutorial on using
a
> particular method or property that I don't understand I find keywords to
> Google from the MSDN Document Examples or Reference and Google for third
> party articles on that method or property as used in a similar example to
> the one I am thinking of creating. . I don't like the IDE's built in help
> feature much at all. Another way to get at relevant methods is to use
> Intellisense. But, of course, that method does not give you any examples
or
> explanations of what selected methods or properties do.
> You can add the Programmer's user Guide and Reference Manual pages as
> hyperlink Icons to your desk top for your particular version of VS and
then
> get to topics of interest from those main pages as well. It's like having
> those 2 online books on your desktop. You can do the same for other MSDN
> pages if you want as well or you can just save them in your favorites
folder
> or even in a text file in a folder to create your own book of reference
> materials and Programmers Guide Materials which are more a learning tool
> than the Reference Manual. .
> Again, verify the version of the online MSDN Library docs you use. There
> are usually multiple versions available such as for vs 2005, 2008 and now
> 2010. I think once you have a main Library url for a class or a manual the
> embedded links to technicals will relate to other pages for that same
> version of VS so you only need to save the highest level page like the
> Programmer Reference or the Programmer Guide for your version and go from
> there or the Library Heading Page..
> I have not found the MSDN Tutorials particularly helpful but I use their
> docs for reference and to learn new features since I already know most of
> what is provided, the classes and methods typical properties and events
for
> the VS features I use.
> Anyway, that is how I use the MSDN Online Docs for vb.net 2008 and it's
> related features and VWD 2008 etc...
> Rick USA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kerneels Roos
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 5:23 AM
> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I was just wondering how other people experienced working with the
> Microsoft document explorer, and if people had some tips and tricks they
> were using to make browsing the docs more economic and a more productive
> process. What I'm saying is I -- for one -- was not blaming MS at all or
> complaining about it, just looking for advice :-).
>
> It's really getting old this thing that blind people complain about how
> inaccesseble this or that piece of software is, as if we have this special
> right to things being super easy for us. Well, we don't and it's a
privilege
> rather than a right if companies go to the expense of trying to make their
> stuf more accessible. They have little or next to nothing to gain from
> spending money on accessibility, yet they still do it, and try to do it
well
> even.
>
> If you look at the "Help on Help" section in the MS document explorer
for
> example, you'll see that there are many accessibility features of that
> program, like configurable keystrokes for example and everythin can be
done
> with a keystroke. This does not necessarily mean that the particular
program
> is easy to use if you can't click everywhere like fully sighted people
does,
> but it does mean that MS tried to make it workable if you can't see the
> screen properly.
>
> Wouldn't it be great if the blind programmer community could get known
for
> being super cooperative with companies in their drive to make their
software
> accessible by being nice, giving constructive critisism and each member of
> the community going the extra mile themselves before opening their mounths
> to complain? Wouldn't such a character prompt vendors to try harder and
> harder to make their products inclusive?
>
> And if company X produce very inaccessible software and efforts to make
> them try a bit fails it should be seen as an opportunity for company Y to
> create competing software that are in fact better and more accessible--
> company Y could add value.
>
> I'm really impressed with many folks on this list that generously offer
> their opinions and advice for free to even the silly questions. Let's all
> try ask smarter questions and do our homework first. And if one happen to
> ask a silly question, be ready to accept a silly response, and let's not
> moan and complain -- life's too short.
>
> OK, enough complaining about complaining!
>
> Enjoy the adventure of programming!
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Katherine Moss
> <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> I'm on 11.0.
>
>
>
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield,
> Tyler
> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 1:19 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: .Net Framework Documentation
>
>
>
> They seem to work fine for me, what jaws are you both running? Rather
> than blame microsoft right off, lets look a bit closer to home first.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Katherine Moss
>
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 11:14 AM
>
> Subject: RE: .Net Framework Documentation
>
>
>
> I'll tell you,
>
> I have had the exact same issue with all of the .net rreferences
> stuff. Even the new SDK docs aren't even accessible via document
explorer.
> I don't understand why Microsoft doesn't implement their own classes they
> have provided for accessibility in their own software!
>
>
>
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels Roos
> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 3:51 AM
> To: programmingblind
> Subject: .Net Framework Documentation
>
>
>
> Hi List,
>
> Don't know about you guys, but I don't find the Microsoft .Net
> Framework documentation browser, or the Microsoft Document Explorer that
> ships with Visual Studio 2008 very accessible via JAWS. Yes, one can get
at
> the information, but it's not a smooth and simple process like with the
> older style CHM files that works great with JAWS.
>
> Does anyone know if all of that documentation, or at least just the
> .Net Class Library reference is available in the old style CHM format?
I've
> searched a bit but could not get a conclusive, authoritive download as of
> yet.
>
> Maybe I'm missing something, but the current means by which I manage
> to navigate it is not eficient at all. Much tabbing, moving around with
the
> JAWS cursor and so on...
>
>
> If anyone is using the default help system any tips would be most
> welcome!
>
> Regards
>
>
> --
> Kerneels Roos
> Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
> Skype: cornelis.roos
>
> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the
cheese!
>
>
>
>
>
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> --
> Kerneels Roos
> Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
> Skype: cornelis.roos
>
> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!
>
>
>
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