right!----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 4:06 PMSubject: RE: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader users?
Tell that to people who wrote "Echo", "Asap", "SBridge", and many of the other ground breaking screen readers. They didn't say Oh cry cry I don't have an API in the case of one of them I know he used a debugger and sometimes his daughter to read the op codes till he got it working. Maybeit's time to grow some non-wining coders again. Some that say fine it don't work then I will make it work and if you don't like it fix it and give me agood API. Tylor you are a new coder but even you should know that if I wanted to I could put line numbers on Notepad even though Microsoft didn't do it. I could actually make system calls to do it and it would take me about 20 minutes. True if I had to figure it out the first time it would take me much longer but the ability is there even if the software was not designed for it.Face book is a much higher level interface and I truly believe this guy cando it not only can do it but it would be a rather simple interface to makecompared to what we collectively have been through in the past with hardwareand software access. So if he wants to do it let him. Ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tyler Littlefield Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 1:29 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader users? Ken, It's people that throw a fit over things that don't become accessible and just work when you snap your fingers that break things for us. If someone wants to write a more accessible Linux, they have all the code, go for it. But making fb work when the person doesn't know the commands to interface with the system like they should, as was already pointed out requires thatthe person go through the facebook team. That means that they have to listento a complaint about the chat not being accessible, and if he can't figureout how to use it I doubt he's going to throw up a bunch of ideas for how it might work better, and it'll just end up as most of the unaccessible programcomplaints stand, "Your program isn't accessible, fix it." Then when we do have a real accessibility problem they're less likely to deal with it if someone starts some anti-facebook movement and a bunch of people with lack of knowledge on the commands to interface with the page message. I've seen people get a bunch of others together, and the idea is "lets all tell themin our own message that this isn't accessible," so they get a ton of emails, usually consisting of nothing but the complaint. Just my two cents, I would rather not scare developers away, especially developers willing to help fromsomething when their assistance could be used later on. Thanks, Tyler Littlefield http://tds-solutions.net Twitter: sorressean On Apr 18, 2010, at 11:21 AM, Ken Perry wrote:Actually don't blame the geeks it's the brainless inheriting the web thatcauses this. If it was the geeks it could be a console or a square button application. The problem is people want it to look like a radio or in the case of chat they want it to look like pretty pieces of paper separated by the people you are scribbling to and they want to be able to do everythingfrom talk to it to write to it by hand. We as coders are babying ourusersbecause when they wine and cry for that special affect where a messagebounces in from one side of the screen and lands in the inbox from them we actually do it. We do it because we know they will be more than likely to buy that cool software because not only can they chat with it but they canthrow small dwarfs at each other thousands of miles apart. If the worldwasmore simple the software would do what it should look boring and work perfectly. Hmmm what fun would that be? I think instead we should addthings like research features to a screen reader Oh and how about a key totell us the weather in a screen reader. Hmm Heck I think we should evenwrite a twitter client in a screen readers API and while we are at it letsmake a screen reader script that allows us to play solitaire.... Oh well geeks aren't the problem the users are the problem because theyhavelearned that these computer thingy's can do everything. The problem isjustbecause a computer can do just about anything does not mean that everyone can do everything they can do. Now it might just be my boring opinion but you all have the right to readmyopinion so here it is. Leave these folks that want to make a betterinterface to something alone. If the guy wants to write a blind interfaceto warcraft more power to him. Just because Facebook is accessible to 12ofus doesn't mean that he shouldn't make it better. Take Linux for example. I bitched at the guy making Vinux. I told him what the hell are you doingmaking yet another flavor of Linux why not just put work into current flavors. The simple fact is because until it is proven that it can bedonebetter it won't be. Now with vinux 3.0 beta I can finally say there is aLinux out there that is stable enough to be used by a totally blind person with no lag on the screen reader. I couldn't say that before so it's goodhe didn't listen to me, and Not only that but some of the stuff he hasdoneis now being moved back into Ubuntu because it's been proven. Just thinkifthis person makes facebook chat so cool and usable by the blind and ittalksreally well you might find some of the changes in the product in years to come because he proved it could be done and it could be useful to morethanjust the blind community. Look at speech on IPods that was first done forblind people but some sited people found it was easier to switch song to song when doing 120 miles an hour in a car they didn't even have to lookatthe screen go figure. So leave the guy alone let him make the next bestwayto access Facebook chat maybe it will make a difference maybe it won't butif he doesn't try then who will? Accessibility is one thing usability is another. Ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 12:45 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader users? The problem in my opinion is that the geeks have inherited the Web atleastif not the Earth.windows has a large variety of controls all of which are standard and wellunderstood by both sighted users and by screen readers. For some reason,developers aren't satisfied with that, they have to tinker or reinvent theuser interface. One consequence is that both the intended sighted usersareconfused but so can we become confused. Rearranging the positions of gears in a standard transmission to continue your analogy would make drivers very uncomfortable and even probably dangerous. Further, the controls in the interface should behave asexpected.Just ask Toyota and those who have had unexpected accelerator behavior. If I was Han Solo I'd probably pet my wookie----- Original Message ----- From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:51 AM Subject: Re: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader users?Michael, your comparisons might hold up in the theoretical sense, but a reader, social security, and sighted guides REQUIRE the assistance of other persons to make them work. The only thing someone has to do to use Facebook chat is, pardon the harshness, open the damn manual of their AT and learn how to use it. So many blind people are woefully ignorant of their AT and its features, and many accessibility complaints, like this one, are founded on this fragmented knowledge. Any reasonably competentuser of either Window Eyes or JAWS I'm sure can figure out the pattern ofscreen redraws necessary to make not only Facebook chat but all the javascript events on Facebook very accessible. It would be nice if all applications were accessible out of the box with screen readers builtintothe OS that were provided for us. This is Utopia, and Utopia does not exist. And while I understand your concerns from the access prospective, remember that if Facebook's developers spend a bunch of time meeting accessibility complaints that could just as easily be solved by users learning their interface to the computer properly, then they can spend more time on general features for the site. I am a blind Facebook user, yes, but I am a Facebook user first and foremost. I want the actual siteto continue to improve, not just its accessibility. If the interface weretruly inaccessible or accessible only through some seriously complicated workarounds, I would gladly sign the petition, trying also to give Facebook's developers all the context they need to fix the accessibility flaws with as little effort as possible on their end. This is not the case. The chat is perfectly accessible, even with the clunky ways screen readers presently interface with the web browsers in common use. Even sighted users have to get used to their interface and how it works, and there're a million petitions from sighted users on Facebook complaining about the interface. Most of them, like this one, are started because someone didn't inform themselves on exactly what they were dealing with and how it might be customized to work to their advantage. Another point of contension I must make is your assertion that scripts or mouse pointer access does not equal accessibility. The developers of the screen readers put these features in there for a reason, namely that they allow accessibility where it was previously not available. Screen readers are no trivial investment, at least on the Windows side. If you are going to pay $800+ for a screen reader, you should take the time to learn to use its features. If you know that the screen reader replaces your monitor and will be the bridge between you and everything you do on the computer, an essential tool in the 21st century, then I don't thinkittoo unreasonable to expect users to spend the same time learning to drivetheir screen reader the way someone might learn the interface of a manually operating motor vehicle. Insert pun about the information superhighway here. All idealism aside, not everything is going to be given to you on a silver platter. This is not the case for us, and it is not the case for anybody. The person most motivated to fix things like this is the one it directly effects, and that is in this case us. If I'm a Facebookdeveloperand I see the many perfectly reasonable means of accessing the chat that have been presented in this thread, including my assertion that even the native browser interface is already quite accessible, , there is no way I'm investing time into the redundant work of "making it accessible". A much more sensible petition might be to call on Facebook to hire devoted accessibility personell to their rapidly growing staff. But this one, in my humble opinion, is a little frivolous. On 4/18/2010 10:14 AM, Michael Malver wrote:Thanks for doing this. I am frustrated by people who argue that workarounds equalaccessibility.A reader is a work around to having accessible books. Should we writetocongress and tell them to stop producing books for the blind because there is a perfectly good work around out there? Social security is a work around to successful employment.Should we encourage companies not to hire disabled people since there isa way for the disabled to make money?Going sighted guide is a workaround for traveling independently. Shouldwe encourage everyone to use sighted guide all the time? If I can't use a product out of the box without having to usespecializedfeatures, such as the mouse cursor, it is not accessible. People who confuse useable with accessible frustrate me as well. You mightbe able to make a script to cause an inaccessible program to be useable,butthat script in my view doesn't negate a company figuring out how to maketheir software to run out of the box. A script is only good for the specific screen reader for which it was designed. Accessible software makes the tool useable for everyone. Just because you may choose not to use something yourself is no reasontodeny other people having access to it. If you want to use AIM instead offacebook to talk to your facebook buddies, that's great, but please helpthose of us who want the ability to use facebook chat and don't understandhow to make the chat automatically speak gain more access by signing the petition which will grant us the kind of access we expect to websites inthe 21st century. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bryan Garaventa Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 7:35 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Make Facebook's live chat accessible to blind screen reader users? Hi, I thought I'd pass this on since it may be of interest to fellow screen reader users. Since there really is no reason why Facebook can't add screen reader accessible functionality to the live chat feature, and it would be nice to be able to communicate with family and friends using the same features that everyone else uses, I created the fan page athttp://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Make-Face-Books-Live-Chat-Accessible-to-Blind-Users/109349762439299?ref=ts In the hope that, if enough people become fans of the idea, it will act as a petition to get Facebook's attention. So if you use Facebook, and would like to see live chat become an accessible feature, please consider becomingafan of the page. The UI implementation that I've proposed through the fan page does the following:1) Automatically announces the latest message as soon as it arrives,regardless where the focus is positioned on the page; 2) Is fully accessible using JAWS 11 with IE7-8 and Firefox3; 3) Is fully accessible using NVDA with IE8 and Firefox3; 4) Can be visually modified using CSS to fit any display without impairing automatic accessibility. 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