This may have been previously mentioned, but there are two additional ways to test Vinux without installing it to its own partition of your hard drive. These are installing it on a USB drive and installing it on a virtual machine. These provide the benefit of persistance; that is to say unlike a live DVD you can save your work or settings while you are still making your evaluation. The USB install is also very handy, since it is an accessible operating system you can use on just about any modern PC.
A package of Vinux that is designed to help users build a live USB install from within a Windows environment can be found at http://vinux.org.uk/downloads.html . Look for the Vinux USB Windows downloads. The .zip file contains documentation for the process.
You can find extensive information about running Vinux virtually at http://vinuxvirtual.org.uk/ . It contains prebuilt virtual machine images of Vinux installations, instructions for acquiring and running the free VMWare Player, and tips for setting up functions like a shared clipboard between your Vinux virtual machine and host Windows machine, file sharing, etc.
JW On 10/18/2010 01:45 PM, Alex Midence wrote:
Hi, Jim, I'll preamble what I'm about to write by telling you that I'm just about in the same boat as you insofar as Linux in general and Vinux in particular is concerned. I'm trying it out to see if I like it. In the last few weeks that I've been trying vinux out, here is the one thing it seems to have over windows: You have control! If I'm doing something in windows, I hate how it just seems to want to think fo ryou and take over for you when all you want to do is get whatever you are doing done. Linux doesn't try to think foryou. It makes you think. The learning curve for a jaws user trying to use orca appears to be low to middling hard. The really cool thing about it so far is there's a lot of free stuff. You pop that cd in and you have an operating system, an office suite, a desktop environment, several browsers, several media programs that help you manipulate sound files and the like, all sorts of compilers, text editors, admin utilities, 3 screen readers, 2 magnifiers and it's all free! I can't get over that one. but, if you are happy with Windows, keep using windows. Storm Dragon made a good point. Using a PC should be relaxing and fun and if you find you are getting frustrated with something, don't worry about it and go back to what you like. Also, you may find that some stuff you are used to using seems to be more accessible in linux than it was in windows and vise versa. Open Office, for instance, is very accessible in linux but clunky in windows. audacity seems more accessible in windows than it is in Gnome. I'm sure there are other examples out there. For you, Jim, I think you might want to try Vinux out the way I am trying it. Burn yourself a live dvd. Then, turn off your machine and pop it in the drive. When you turn it on again, Vinux comes up talking. You can install stuff and make changes to it and it doesn't touch your hard drive. When you are done, you eject the cd, shut down and you come back up in windows as if nothing had ever happened. Your pc is none the wiser that you wer on Linux. If you like it, you can go on and install it to an additional hard drive or a partition of your current one. If you don't, well, just tuck the dvd away on a shelf somewhere and go back to what you like with no wirries. HTH, Alex M On 10/18/10, Homme, James<james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:Hi, My question was theoretical. I was thinking NVDA maybe. Time will tell. Jim Jim Homme, Usability Services, Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 12:48 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: Low Risk Vinuxx; was Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders? I want to add that sometimes the best way to learn a language is to dive in and Vinux and Orca would definitely be a high dive to start on but it would be worth the pain if your planning on helping out. Ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 12:30 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: Low Risk Vinuxx; was Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders? Hi Sina, But presumably, if I keep going in my Python learning, I might be able to do something such as contribute to Orca, which would help, or is that program written in something else? Thanks. Jim Jim Homme, Usability Services, Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 11:12 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: Low Risk Vinuxx; was Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders? You said religious views aside, which implies that you don't want to know about free software versus proprietary software. To that end, I will give you a purely functional answer free of philosophy. The practical answer is that your user experience as a blind user doing the things you described will be noticeably worse and more frustrating on Vinux. Everyday, this answer becomes less and less true, but honesty is the best policy, and for right now, Vinux would not be what I'd recommend for the operations you just described. Now, of course there are benefits that come along with the disadvantages; such as, some improved defenses against most threats out there, simply because folks target windows more than Linux, not because Linux is somehow more secure, which it isn't. you have more control over your system in terms of tweaks you can make to it, both graphical and commandline. And, I'd say that you have the obvious financial benefit of it being free. Take care, Sina -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 7:57 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: Low Risk Vinuxx; was Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders? Hi, I'm asking this because I'm not a gifted programmer. I am a gifted musician, so I know the difference. I've had to work very hard to learn what I know about programming, so computers still hold a lot of mystery for me. OK. Time for me to again get things all stirred up. If you are someone who just wants to browse the web, make documents and spreadsheets, use e-mail, and so on, and still get people who use Windows to read and write your documents, and read and write theirs, what is so great about Vinux. I mean, if you are not a hacker, and you just want to turn on your computer and have it work as well as your Windows machine works now, what is so great about all of this, religeous views aside? Jim Homme, Usability Services, Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Don Marang Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 1:24 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Low Risk Vinuxx; was Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders? Most computers have a key to hold down while starting up that provides a list of devices to boot from. On my Dell computers, this is the F12 key. This will override the BIOS boot up sequence for that session. The top item, "Boot from HD" is selected. Pressing the Down Arrow once will select "Boot from CD/DVD". If a USB device is detected, it will be placed between the HD and CD options. So normally, holding down the F12 key for about 5 seconds after turning on the computer, then pressing the Down Arrow key once, and pressing Enter will boot from the CD/DVD. If your BIOS has a password set, I would doubt if it would let you boot from CD and reformat the hard disk. I know there are Ubuntu tools to break unknown Windows passwords. I have them installed on my USB Rescue Flash drive. I do not think it handles BIOS passwords. I would do a Google search. I would not be surprised that there is a Ubuntu package out there to break BIOS passwords. Creating a USB Rescue Flash drive is easy. Download the Vinux 3.0 USB tool below and install the desired rescue packages. The third link, step 24, is an example of installing the common rescue packages. The 'chntpw' package is the Windows password tool. You can install other Ubuntu packages in the same manner. Vinux Virtual World download page: http://vinuxvirtual.org.uk/downloads USB creation tool direct link: (works from Windows) http://vinuxvirtual.org.uk/lucid/Vinux-3.0-USB-Win.zip Create Vinux Rescue DVD including Image for Linux: http://wiki.vinuxvirtual.org.uk/index.php?title=Vinux_How-To_Page#Create_a_V inux_Rescue_DVD_Which_Includes_Image_for_Linux Don Marang There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of any real substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am working on things that matter. Dean Kamen -------------------------------------------------- From: "Alex Midence"<alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 12:12 AM To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: Low Risk Vinuxx; was Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?I have been tinkering with it using a live cd and I'm finding it quite addictive. Wish someone would put together a live cd download of vinux with emacs speak with Espeak as the desktop that comes up instead of gnome. Be neat to try it out. While I'm wishing, I wish I could get this old pc I've got lying around to boot up with it. My wife isn't very computer literate and I can't get her to describe the bios methods for me that would let me configure the thing to boot from cd. The PC has windows 98 on it and died the death some years ago when it choked on a bios virus that did nasty mean things to it. Now, it won't come up even with windows if you don't put in a password at the bios prompt. Before the OS is even launched. I don't know the password. There probably really isn't one. Pity because it used to work great. It's got a 40 gig hard drive and about 512 megs of ram. Vinux would run just fine on it. Alex M On 10/14/10, Don Marang<donald.marang@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:Vinux has several low risk methods, besides using a live CD or DVD. From your favorite version of Windows, you can run Vinux in a VMware Player Virtual Machine (VM). You can download a preconfigured VM at: Vinux Virtual Edition - http://vinuxvirtual.org.uk For better performance, and as a great Rescue Device, I recommend checking out creating an USB Flash drive with persistance. The above site also has a Windows tool to create such a device. Don Marang There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of any real substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am working on things that matter. Dean Kamen -------------------------------------------------- From: "Homme, James"<james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:33 PM To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?Hi, If I would get an external hard drive, would that work, and is someone willing to lose their hair in the act of trying to help me dothis?Thanks. Jim Jim Homme, Usability Services, Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Hofstader Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:02 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders? Hi Jim, Item 1: A few people on this list could help you install the VM based Vinux on a Windows computer running VMWare Player. I'm probably not the best source for this help (Sina knows it much better than I do) but we could spend some time writing up the things you need to download to get started and then maybe talking to you on the phone through the installation process. A spare hard disk to house your virtual machines might give you greater peace of mind knowing that your Vinux distro won't even know about your main hard drive and, therefore, cannot destroy your valuable data. Item 2: I'm told that their is emacspeak for Windows but, right now, I don't have Windows running on anything in my Cambridge home so I can't find the download and try the installation to give you any useful help on getting emacspeak running on Windows. cdh On Oct 14, 2010, at 9:42 AM, Homme, James wrote:Hi Chris, I truly wish I were brave enough to install Vinux. Someday I'll grab a spare machine and give it a try. Does Emacs Speak happen to work on Windows? Jim Jim Homme, Usability Services, Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Hofstader Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:27 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders? Using emacspeak is sort of like having a fully accessible OS but in a semi self voicing, semi screen reader environment. I like to use it for programming but it is the ultimate talking multi-tool. cdh On Oct 14, 2010, at 4:19 AM,<Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:Hi. In answer to the subject field my answer is yes. Just a couple of thoughts. We have got to be careful about limiting our selves. I'm in general agreement with what's been said however we have to face facts. We live in a visual world. When I tell people I'm a computer programmer almost the first question I get asked is how can you see the screen. I also think the idea of an OS which doesn't have a GUI which would avoid having to have a complex expensive screen reader on is a nice idea in theory but there are a couple of points which would make it in practical. This OS would typically be for the VI market, which means it would be a specialist development. This means it would need to be open source or proprietary for an access tech company. If you think screen readers are complex they are nothing to a full operating system. This would indicate that the price would be hefty Or not commercially supported in the instance of an Open source OS. The other major limitation on a new OS would be support in an industrial environment. For example the company I work for has a specific build of windows XP aloud on the network, it won't let you have other builds of XP connected unless otherwise approved and just forget about non windows based OS, not a chance, this is not that unusual in a work environment. Also I would be afraid that it would button hole us and make it harder for one of us to get a job as a software engineer. If you tern up for a job interview and you don't have any experience developing for the platform your potential employer targets its another thing that marks you down in comparison to anyone else going for the job. The other worry is if a blind developer had no GUI development skills at all. As has been said on this thread for a sighted person to put together a gui its pretty quick so its a normal thing a sighted developer can do. I'd like to think that I'm someone who will give almost anything ago and try not to let the fact I can't see a screen make a difference to the work I do. With this philosophy in mind there are 2 questions I was asked that a normal developer wouldn't have been in the job interview which resulted in me getting the job I've been doing for the last 5 and a half years. 1. How would you be able to use the graphical UML design tools and show software design in a similar way to other developers? 2. Can and how do you develop GUI's. Write away there you can see the interviewer seeing problems that need to be answered to find out if I can do the job. I know some people who would have thought it improper to ask these questions but in my mind if they hadn't been asked there would have still been a question mark next to me when it came down to selecting the successful candidate. I've been told since that it was the "I may not do it in the normal way but it will get done" attitude of the answers that I gave which swayed the panel in my way as it showed my attitude to everything, not just my blindness. If my answers would have been 1. I don't do graphical design. Its pointless, I do everything in a text file. 2. I don't do GUI's, other people are better at it than I am. It shows a defeatist attitude, not something most employers are looking for. Yes, sighted people can be quicker at both these particular software skills but other things I bring to the table I could be better at than others in the team, not because I'm blind but because I just am. A team is made up of individuals with varying skills. Lets not get away from the fact that the negative answers above do have an element of truth. If I had my way my design wouldn't be done in UML and I wouldn't do GUI development but I don't work in a bubble. Sighted people review, approve and use software and designs that I've generated and as I said we live in a visual world. Anyway, enough rambling from me. Thanks Nick. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels Roos Sent: 13 October 2010 16:08 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders? This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again with a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic. I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI is a massive task in all fairness. I didn't catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to show you simple GUI creation in variousprogramming languages.Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's a service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's worth. We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas where having no or littlesight might aid you!One particular small project I worked on while studying at university springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in after we did our presentation and basically told the class that we really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and hours on the little GUI side of the software. It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,, areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact . It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all. And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle. Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves and our value to a software development shop developing for the general public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years experience as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less time and with less effort. My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in programming and computer science where visually impaired people can excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever increasingly important part. Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a company. Kerneels On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote: I would advise spending time on web development with java on the server side. Either that or headless java development such as web services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong java developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills in an API, swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead, I can't push it into a project here because it is not an accepted technology by our enterprise architects. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO Hi Jay, Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on Swing, SWT, or web? Thanks. Jim Jim Homme, Usability Services, Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring java developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble with is finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there are certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a lot of java development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to using web based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining interest in using swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on swing accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of us who still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO" <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO Hi Listers, I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing government contracts in the United States would have some affect on all this. I have asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much because there is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java programmer so maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use Struts at my building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool of myself, it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin). Susie Stanzel -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol or hound,or pummel, or... elf Moderator, Blind Access Help Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises Specialists in customized computers and peripherals - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! www.alacorncomputer.com proprietor, The Grab Bag, for blind computer users and programmers http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sina Bahram"<sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the voice of reason has made itself known. Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into actually not abandoning it. Take care, Sina ________________________________ From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away. It's time to get people to get active and start emailing and calling them till they do support it. If we stay away we lose what accessibility was there. Ken From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm Dragon Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO Hi, I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun. It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software decisions, to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get rid of Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage to win their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the open source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still alive and well after all. Storm -- Registered Linux user number 508465: http://counter.li.org/ My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon: http://www.stormdragon.us/ Get yourself a Frostbox: http://www.frostbitesystems.com/ On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote: oh know, i wish its just a rumor. if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said. regards, prateek agarwal. On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui<empower@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to discontinue support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative is planned). I would be glad to be convinced otherwise. If anyone has information regarding this topic, please share. Jamal __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or affiliates. __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind -- Kerneels Roos Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998 Skype: cornelis.roos "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" . "The Strawberry Jam Law: The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..." -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting. __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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