RE: Java versus Python

  • From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:29:44 -0400

Grin see I agree with you there but I was not in a place to make that
original decision.  Now I will clear up a statement.  It was not an
operating system we wrote.  It was a shell on top of one something python
should be able to handle fine.  The problem is though python threads turned
out not to be as robust as the people who first started the project thought
they would be.  They worked great till well pushed to the limit.  In truth
it's not really a multi threaded language all though they have used a monkey
wrench to get threads into the language.  Also the problems with not typed
language has become an issue as well because of the encoding problems we ran
into.  The encoding problems we are able to work around and are only getting
better but Again I agree that we are doing too much with python.  If you
noticed the whole point of this email thread was to say there are some
things that should not be done in python.  And Reasons that the spacing in
the language is not as safe as some on this list were saying.  So if you
want me to take the statement back where I said we broke python that is
fine.  What I mean is we broke the limits of what we were doing with python.
The people who started the project really thought it could handle what we
were doing.  It should be able to handle what we are doing and if we ran it
on a 1.2 ghz processor or better than it might be able to handle it.  But
the current hardware can't with python.  It can with a compiled language.
Heck a compile language can work on much less hardware than what we are
using currently.  Which goes back to the reason for this email thread and
that was  just to say python don't work for large projects it just cannot
handle something's that other more compiled or typed languages can handle.

Ken  
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
Coale
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 6:16 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Java versus Python

I understand entirely what you are saying, but please don't say you 
"broke the interpreter" even if you mean that metaphorically. You are 
implying that something is wrong with Python when there is not. Python 
is an interpreted language, and as such, it is usually implicitly slower 
than compiled languages. This should have been considered before the 
coding process even took place.

Don't take this as a personal attack, but it is common sense not to push 
an interpreted language too far. I am not going to write a 3D software 
rasterizer in Python because obviously Python (any interpreted language 
for that matter) most likely cannot handle that much data needing to be 
processed in real-time. It doesn't mean Python is broke, or that I broke 
Python. It means that Python is not the right tool for the Job, and I 
should not use it.

On 6/18/2011 3:09 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
> We broke the interpreter well not broke per say but slowed it down enough
to
> be the same thing.  believe it or not python interpreters are not made to
be
> operating systems or they would actually support multi threaded
applications
> without having to get funky with the guile system.  i will admit 2.6 and
> above has got better but python is a great language until you push it too
> far.
> I said what I said because I meant it.  yes semantically your right python
> was still running it just wasn't running very good.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
> Coale
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 6:05 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>
> Please don't say you "broke" Python, as you did not. What you mean to
> say is that your development team broke your project. I'm unsure if you
> are referring to the execution speed of Python or the development time
> it took you to create applications; if you are referring to the former,
> then I must say that you (and/or your development team) did poor project
> planning. Did you not know that Python tends to be an interpreted
> language? That's something to consider when you are developing a
> performance-critical application.
>
> As for the indentation issue -- why was this not considered before the
> project started? Many people have no problems with the indentations,
> though, admittedly, some do. This should have been one of the things to
> consider during the planning stage.
>
> On 6/18/2011 2:42 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>> Sina I have told Tylor that I will not respond to anything he posts so
> this
>> is pushing it to answer your post here but yes I have went as far as
> python
>> can go and it broke.  I don't like mentioning it because python is a
great
>> language for many things. but yes our rather large python project which
is
>> pretty much an accessible front end for Linux, word processor, web
> browser,
>> media player, radio tuner, book reader, twitter application, rss reader,
>> email, all wrote in python Just got to the point where python was slowing
>> things down even know the major lifting was done with c++ modules.  So
> while
>> we could crank out more and more apps they got slower and slower.  So yes
> we
>> took python where we thought it could go and it broke.  I already
> mentioned
>> once where a block of code looked right but was not for example something
>> like this
>>
>> if expression :
>>      do something
>>
>>     do something
>>     do something
>>     do something
>>
>> Now that looks right if you intended the whole 4 lines to be in the if
>> statement but if you were blocking the three lines and they took the
>> indentation which some editors do you might not notice you had it at the
>> same level as a blind coder.  This happened actually to a sighted coder
> and
>> the code was in for a long time and I mean years before it was finally
>> found.  Luckily it was not that important a bit of code but it took a
> blind
>> guy and some pain staking looking to find the problem.  Granted this
don't
>> happen a lot but it does happen more than it does in languages that use
> true
>> blocks of code.
>>
>> As for the typing of the language don't get me started you don't know how
>> many times I  and others have pushed stuff from the web into a sqlite3
> data
>> base and taken it out and got nothing like we expected because of unicode
>> and Ascii.  I still like python for quick stuff but give me a typed
> language
>> any day.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 2:39 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>>
>> I have, as has Ken more than me, and both of us have experienced the
>> complete misery that is the lack of proper typing in
>> multiperson development teams.
>>
>> Out of curiosity, have you? been in a multiple person development team, I
>> mean, so that you can back up how well Python works?
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield,
>> Tyler
>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 9:48 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>
>> Have you coded in python frequently enough to be able to back up the
>> statement that coding in Python dies after big projects? I've added to
>> some python projects and you can still code just as fast.
>> On 6/18/2011 6:45 AM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>> One reason we chose Java for BrailleBlaster is SWT. It really works as a
>>> cross-platform GUI builder. Once you get into a complex project the
>>> advantages of being able to develop something quickly in Python are much
>>> less.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 03:22:52PM +0300, black ares wrote:
>>>> In fact it isn't a matter of preference.
>>>> Best trained profesionals in this area choose the platform and
> technology
>>>> best tailored to the project needs.
>>>> So If I have a project that I can do better and quick in python than I
>> will
>>>> choose that langgage.
>>>> If options are better in java I will choose it.
>>>> Depends very much on the project requirements.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "David Tseng"<davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 5:15 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I personally find arguments about programming languages much analogous
>>>>> to those seen in politics.  Both sides have great points but tend to
>>>>> drive one another towards opposite extremes.  Some camps are die hard
>>>>> dynamic language practitioners while others stick to strongly typed
>>>>> code.
>>>>>
>>>>> I will say that strongly typed languages have kind of won the battle
>>>>> historically.  Most of the industry writes in C-styled languages like
>>>>> C/C++, java, etc.  Lisp, still beloved by many, kind of lost.  Python,
>>>>> as many have shown, works wonderfully and frees up coders to actually
>>>>> code, is still largely a wrapper on C.  For those who want absolute
>>>>> performance, it's considered still an extra level of indirection
>>>>> that's not worth the productivity gain.
>>>>>
>>>>> I love python and its free-form style and the amount of progress you
>>>>> can make using it.  Python excels at the rinse and repeat (compile,
>>>>> run, fix) style of coding.  The few seconds you need to compile a
>>>>> C-styled language and run, you're already fixing the bug in python.
>>>>> You're not babied into writing object-oriented code ala java, but can
>>>>> independently mix in functional aspects if you wish.  You can just as
>>>>> easily go OO if you want as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/17/11, Alex Hall<mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx>    wrote:
>>>>>> Programming is certainly a matter of preference in most situations. I
>>>>>> would probably give up if the only option were php, since I really
>>>>>> hate that language (no offense to anyone). Java is easy enough, but I
>>>>>> agree that it feels bulky at times. I like Python's ease of use and
>>>>>> readability, plus you can create executables with it, something that
>>>>>> is difficult in java. Some people don't like that python is loosely
>>>>>> typed, but I prefer saying:
>>>>>> name=raw_input("Enter your name: ")
>>>>>> to, if memory serves:
>>>>>> name=new String();
>>>>>> in=new InputReader();
>>>>>> name=in.readLine();
>>>>>> or something along those lines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Littlefield, Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>    wrote:
>>>>>>> I've used both. I really like python because it comes on most *nix
>>>>>>> systems. I also like Python because of it's flexability and
>> versatility.
>>>>>>> Java is nice enough, but it feels big bulky and clunky to me. That
> and
>>>>>>> they seem to have some serious naming convention issues. Sometimes
>>>>>>> things are capitalized, sometimes they're not--.net makes more
sense.
>>>>>>> On 6/17/2011 6:49 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>>>> There has been a lot of discussion on the list lately about Python.
>> Why
>>>>>>>> is that?Personally i much prefer Java. Its syntx makes a lot more
>> sense
>>>>>>>> and it is just as powerful, if not more. A command-line build
system
>>>>>>>> like ant can take most of the hassle out of working with Java
>> classes.
>>>>>>>> personally, I prefer this to Eclipse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BrailleBlaster is written in Java. I am using openjdk-1.6, Eclipse
>> SWT
>>>>>>>> and Apache Ant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>> my website:
>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>>> my blog:
>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>>>>>>> skype: st8amnd127
>>>>>>> My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>>>>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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