RE: Java versus Python

  • From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:43:04 -0400

Not it will always print both even if you specify none.

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of black ares
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 4:28 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Java versus Python

hmm... doesn't it print "my string" when you specify only the int 
argument???

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 8:52 PM
Subject: RE: Java versus Python


>
> No not dictionaries named  variables.  For example
>
> Def myfunc (stringArg="my string",intArg=1):
>  Print "%d %s" % (intArg,StringArg)
>
> Then you can do
>
> myFunc(stringArg="blah")
> myFunc(intArg=5)
> myfunc("blah",9)
>
> So you get kind of a function overloading
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:25 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>
> Hi Ken,
> Are you talking about dictionaries or something else? I tried to google 
> this
> and I'm unsure if I'm reading the right stuff.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 12:27 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>
> This is not true with python and named variables.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of black ares
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 12:21 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>
> Another problem I've meet with weak typing is polymorphism.
> If I want a behavior for a int value and other behavior for a string 
> value,
> I can not write same method with diferent arguments and different 
> behaviors.
> I am left only with the optionto write two different methods and to do 
> ugly
> if else statements.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 2:51 PM
> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>
>
>> There are two issues, just so we don't' conflate them.
>>
>> One is the issue of the grammar in question, and the second is the parser
>> for this grammar.
>>
>> So, the grammar for java uses left/right brace for block level scoping,
>> and the grammar for python uses indention level.
>>
>> Short humorous aside, everyone says indentation instead of indention, but
>> isn't indentation what you actually do to someone's head
>> in a fight, not to your code? Sorry, I love grammars, regardless of
>> context, *smile*, pun intended.
>>
>> Ok, so if one were to simply say that missing a space is like forgetting 
>> a
>
>> brace, then, everything else being equal, it would be a
>> similar error; however, it isn't exactly the same thing. Spacing for
>> indention purposes happens on a line by line basis, as opposed
>> to the one time operation that is putting, or not putting, an
>> opening/closing brace.
>>
>> Also, forgetting a closing brace leaves a block of code open, and
>> forgetting a space instead closes a block.
>>
>> Ok, so now if we have some code, if I forget a closing brace, that's not
>> fun, but it's at least pretty easy to detect because
>> chances are that I'll open a method declaration or do something else that
>> doesn't happen inside of a block.
>>
>> If I forget a space, i simply close the block, so a bug can stay there
>> forever, because all that's happened is that I've simply
>> closed it one line too soon, or maybe a few lines too soon ... so that
>> code still runs, but maybe just not on the conditional I
>> want, or maybe it overrides a value.
>>
>> In other words, I'm putting forth that forgetting a closing brace is
>> actually more destructive than forgetting a space, but because
>> of this, the parser quickly ends up finding something that is an illegal
>> syntax error or just something at the semantic level that
>> doesn't make sense, and so there's a much higher chance of you finding 
>> out
>
>> about it before you ever come to run your program even
>> once.
>>
>> That, I hope, addresses the issue of grammars.
>>
>> Now, moving onto parsers.
>>
>> The parser for Python, I feel, and this is subjective, doesn't give as
>> good feedback to the programmer as the java one does. The
>> reason for this really isn't the python guys' fault, at least not always,
>> and that's because of a lack of typing. Because of this,
>> sometimes error messages are perceived as vague and not useful.
>>
>> In java, alternatively, the compiler knows exactly what its expecting,
>> what would even make the code syntactically correct, and so
>> not only can it give you feedback along the lines of an argument being of
>> a wrong type, but tell you what it was thinking should go
>> there instead.
>>
>> Anyways, just some thoughts.
>>
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:25 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>>
>> Hi,
>> What would Java have done in a case like this? According to me, this 
>> would
>
>> be a logic error whether or not it had anything to do
>> with indentation. I would think that it would be very easy to miss a 
>> right
>
>> brace at the end of a code block. This would especially
>> be true since Java allows you to have a single statement without using a
>> right brace. It could be that I am missing something here
>> in my thinking.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 12:22 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>>
>> This is true while I won't get into the what language is better since I
>> write in too many in my job to even want to have an opinion people need 
>> to
>> realize that miss placed spaces are nothing like context problems in 
>> other
>> languages.  If you miss place a block of spaced lines you don't just 
>> cause
>> an error in the code.  In fact the code might run along happily with no
>> errors but the code won't do what you want.  This is one of the down 
>> falls
>> of python.  There was actually a bug in the Icon and Braille+ that has
>> been
>> out for years that we only just recently found because of this very fact.
>> One of the sighted guys that works on the project even missed it because
>> the
>> block of 10 lines of code just looked like it was supposed to be out 
>> there
>> on its own.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J. Boyer
>> Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 11:38 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>
>> The mandatory indentation in Python means that a single misplaced
>> whitespace
>> can entirely destroy a program. This is not very robust. C programmers
>> usually make sure their code is nicely indented by using a utility like
>> the
>> Gnu indent. I'm still looking for something similar for Java. Manual
>> indentation is too error-prone.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 08:32:55PM -0600, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
>>> Java uses it's indentation much like braces are used. It's not where
>>> things have to be in specific columns, but indentation sort of solves
>>> a couple problems.
>>> 1) It means that all blocks of code are denoted by a deeper
>>> indentation level than the block that branched it.
>>> 2) It also means that people usually stick to a nice style. I've seen
>>> a lot of different code, for example:
>>> while (bla)
>>> do_something();
>>> while (bla) {
>>> do_something
>>> }
>>> while (bla)
>>> {
>>> do_something();
>>> }
>>>
>>> Indentation can be a bit hard to get used to, but I personally like it
>>> quite a lot.
>>> On 6/17/2011 8:30 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>> >The thing I dislike about Python is mandatory indentation. This seems
>>> >to me a throwback to the old days of assembly language and Cobol,
>>> >where things had to be in certain columns. I like the free-form
>>> >syntax of Java and C.
>>> >
>>> >John
>>> >
>>> >On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 07:15:55PM -0700, David Tseng wrote:
>>> >>I personally find arguments about programming languages much
>>> >>analogous to those seen in politics.  Both sides have great points
>>> >>but tend to drive one another towards opposite extremes.  Some camps
>>> >>are die hard dynamic language practitioners while others stick to
>>> >>strongly typed code.
>>> >>
>>> >>I will say that strongly typed languages have kind of won the battle
>>> >>historically.  Most of the industry writes in C-styled languages
>>> >>like C/C++, java, etc.  Lisp, still beloved by many, kind of lost.
>>> >>Python, as many have shown, works wonderfully and frees up coders to
>>> >>actually code, is still largely a wrapper on C.  For those who want
>>> >>absolute performance, it's considered still an extra level of
>>> >>indirection that's not worth the productivity gain.
>>> >>
>>> >>I love python and its free-form style and the amount of progress you
>>> >>can make using it.  Python excels at the rinse and repeat (compile,
>>> >>run, fix) style of coding.  The few seconds you need to compile a
>>> >>C-styled language and run, you're already fixing the bug in python.
>>> >>You're not babied into writing object-oriented code ala java, but
>>> >>can independently mix in functional aspects if you wish.  You can
>>> >>just as easily go OO if you want as well.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>On 6/17/11, Alex Hall<mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
>>> >>>Programming is certainly a matter of preference in most situations.
>>> >>>I would probably give up if the only option were php, since I
>>> >>>really hate that language (no offense to anyone). Java is easy
>>> >>>enough, but I agree that it feels bulky at times. I like Python's
>>> >>>ease of use and readability, plus you can create executables with
>>> >>>it, something that is difficult in java. Some people don't like
>>> >>>that python is loosely typed, but I prefer saying:
>>> >>>name=raw_input("Enter your name: ") to, if memory serves:
>>> >>>name=new String();
>>> >>>in=new InputReader();
>>> >>>name=in.readLine();
>>> >>>or something along those lines.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>On 6/17/11, Littlefield, Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
>>> >>>>I've used both. I really like python because it comes on most *nix
>>> >>>>systems. I also like Python because of it's flexability and
>> versatility.
>>> >>>>Java is nice enough, but it feels big bulky and clunky to me. That
>>> >>>>and they seem to have some serious naming convention issues.
>>> >>>>Sometimes things are capitalized, sometimes they're not--.net makes
>> more sense.
>>> >>>>On 6/17/2011 6:49 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>> >>>>>There has been a lot of discussion on the list lately about
>>> >>>>>Python. Why is that?Personally i much prefer Java. Its syntx
>>> >>>>>makes a lot more sense and it is just as powerful, if not more. A
>>> >>>>>command-line build system like ant can take most of the hassle out
>>> >>>>>of
>> working with Java classes.
>>> >>>>>personally, I prefer this to Eclipse.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>BrailleBlaster is written in Java. I am using openjdk-1.6,
>>> >>>>>Eclipse SWT and Apache Ant.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>John
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>--
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>Take care,
>>> >>>>Ty
>>> >>>>my website:
>>> >>>>http://tds-solutions.net
>>> >>>>my blog:
>>> >>>>http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>>> >>>>skype: st8amnd127
>>> >>>>My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>__________
>>> >>>>View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> >>>>//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>--
>>> >>>Have a great day,
>>> >>>Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>> >>>mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap __________ View
>>> >>>the list's information and change your settings at
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>>> >>>
>>> >>__________
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>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> my website:
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> my blog:
>>> http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>>> skype: st8amnd127
>>> My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>> --
>> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer Abilitiessoft, Inc.
>> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
>> Madison, Wisconsin USA
>> Developing software for people with disabilities
>>
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