Re: Java versus Python

  • From: David Tseng <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 06:25:57 -0700

Well, then it really wasn't entirely the fault of the language.  Stuff
definitely slips by code reviews.  Then again, if you guys didn't
catch it for years, the revieweer didn't see a problem, understood the
block,  and did a thorough job, crash logs didn't finger the offending
line, unit tests didn't flag the enclosing method, static analysis
tools didn't warn (not sure how much there is here for python), QA
didn't hammer you guys for the manifestation of the bug, etc...then is
it really an issue?



On 6/20/11, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Well the problem was the 10 lines of code that are the real life example
> made since either in or out of the code in a code walk through in fact it
> worked for 90 % of the cases.  But if this was done in another language the
> bug would have been found and caught much sooner.
>
> ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Tseng
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 8:42 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>
> Striving for consistency within a specific codebase or organization
> feels "right" to me.  If everyone agrees to stick with braces except
> for single lined if statements, then it becomes accepted practice
> rather than a debate of individual preference.
>
> Given the above and a good software engineering culture, even the
> python issues pointed out can rarely creep into the codebase.  It's a
> wonder how useful code reviews, in-line code commenting ttools, static
> analysis, unit/integration/continuous testing, commit queues, etc all
> do for stomping out most of the problems pointed out in this thread
> regardless of language.
>
> Of course, if you're just one hacker doing your own thing, it really
> doesn't matter as long as you understand your own codebase fully.  It
> does from what I've seen though cause an intensive sense of
> protectiveness and fondness for a specific language or platform.
>
> There's really no better way to learn imo to try writing a handfull of
> projects and to pick a language you've never used.  The language,
> after all's just an expression of core CS concepts and a means to an
> end.
>
> On 6/20/11, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> Oh I will also note if you do use the no braces method again you know that
>> the second line is not part of the if in python it can be if the
> indentation
>> is wrong.  So even if you didn't surround all your singles with braces
> like
>> I do then you would still know that block did not belong to the if.
>>
>> ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:25 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>>
>> Hi,
>> What would Java have done in a case like this? According to me, this would
>> be a logic error whether or not it had anything to do with indentation. I
>> would think that it would be very easy to miss a right brace at the end of
> a
>> code block. This would especially be true since Java allows you to have a
>> single statement without using a right brace. It could be that I am
> missing
>> something here in my thinking.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 12:22 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>>
>> This is true while I won't get into the what language is better since I
>> write in too many in my job to even want to have an opinion people need to
>> realize that miss placed spaces are nothing like context problems in other
>> languages.  If you miss place a block of spaced lines you don't just cause
>> an error in the code.  In fact the code might run along happily with no
>> errors but the code won't do what you want.  This is one of the down falls
>> of python.  There was actually a bug in the Icon and Braille+ that has
> been
>> out for years that we only just recently found because of this very fact.
>> One of the sighted guys that works on the project even missed it because
> the
>> block of 10 lines of code just looked like it was supposed to be out there
>> on its own.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J. Boyer
>> Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 11:38 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>
>> The mandatory indentation in Python means that a single misplaced
> whitespace
>> can entirely destroy a program. This is not very robust. C programmers
>> usually make sure their code is nicely indented by using a utility like
> the
>> Gnu indent. I'm still looking for something similar for Java. Manual
>> indentation is too error-prone.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 08:32:55PM -0600, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
>>> Java uses it's indentation much like braces are used. It's not where
>>> things have to be in specific columns, but indentation sort of solves
>>> a couple problems.
>>> 1) It means that all blocks of code are denoted by a deeper
>>> indentation level than the block that branched it.
>>> 2) It also means that people usually stick to a nice style. I've seen
>>> a lot of different code, for example:
>>> while (bla)
>>> do_something();
>>> while (bla) {
>>> do_something
>>> }
>>> while (bla)
>>> {
>>> do_something();
>>> }
>>>
>>> Indentation can be a bit hard to get used to, but I personally like it
>>> quite a lot.
>>> On 6/17/2011 8:30 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>> >The thing I dislike about Python is mandatory indentation. This seems
>>> >to me a throwback to the old days of assembly language and Cobol,
>>> >where things had to be in certain columns. I like the free-form
>>> >syntax of Java and C.
>>> >
>>> >John
>>> >
>>> >On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 07:15:55PM -0700, David Tseng wrote:
>>> >>I personally find arguments about programming languages much
>>> >>analogous to those seen in politics.  Both sides have great points
>>> >>but tend to drive one another towards opposite extremes.  Some camps
>>> >>are die hard dynamic language practitioners while others stick to
>>> >>strongly typed code.
>>> >>
>>> >>I will say that strongly typed languages have kind of won the battle
>>> >>historically.  Most of the industry writes in C-styled languages
>>> >>like C/C++, java, etc.  Lisp, still beloved by many, kind of lost.
>>> >>Python, as many have shown, works wonderfully and frees up coders to
>>> >>actually code, is still largely a wrapper on C.  For those who want
>>> >>absolute performance, it's considered still an extra level of
>>> >>indirection that's not worth the productivity gain.
>>> >>
>>> >>I love python and its free-form style and the amount of progress you
>>> >>can make using it.  Python excels at the rinse and repeat (compile,
>>> >>run, fix) style of coding.  The few seconds you need to compile a
>>> >>C-styled language and run, you're already fixing the bug in python.
>>> >>You're not babied into writing object-oriented code ala java, but
>>> >>can independently mix in functional aspects if you wish.  You can
>>> >>just as easily go OO if you want as well.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>On 6/17/11, Alex Hall<mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
>>> >>>Programming is certainly a matter of preference in most situations.
>>> >>>I would probably give up if the only option were php, since I
>>> >>>really hate that language (no offense to anyone). Java is easy
>>> >>>enough, but I agree that it feels bulky at times. I like Python's
>>> >>>ease of use and readability, plus you can create executables with
>>> >>>it, something that is difficult in java. Some people don't like
>>> >>>that python is loosely typed, but I prefer saying:
>>> >>>name=raw_input("Enter your name: ") to, if memory serves:
>>> >>>name=new String();
>>> >>>in=new InputReader();
>>> >>>name=in.readLine();
>>> >>>or something along those lines.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>On 6/17/11, Littlefield, Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
>>> >>>>I've used both. I really like python because it comes on most *nix
>>> >>>>systems. I also like Python because of it's flexability and
>> versatility.
>>> >>>>Java is nice enough, but it feels big bulky and clunky to me. That
>>> >>>>and they seem to have some serious naming convention issues.
>>> >>>>Sometimes things are capitalized, sometimes they're not--.net makes
>> more sense.
>>> >>>>On 6/17/2011 6:49 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>> >>>>>There has been a lot of discussion on the list lately about
>>> >>>>>Python. Why is that?Personally i much prefer Java. Its syntx
>>> >>>>>makes a lot more sense and it is just as powerful, if not more. A
>>> >>>>>command-line build system like ant can take most of the hassle out
> of
>> working with Java classes.
>>> >>>>>personally, I prefer this to Eclipse.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>BrailleBlaster is written in Java. I am using openjdk-1.6,
>>> >>>>>Eclipse SWT and Apache Ant.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>John
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>--
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>Take care,
>>> >>>>Ty
>>> >>>>my website:
>>> >>>>http://tds-solutions.net
>>> >>>>my blog:
>>> >>>>http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>>> >>>>skype: st8amnd127
>>> >>>>My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>__________
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>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>--
>>> >>>Have a great day,
>>> >>>Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
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>>> >>>the list's information and change your settings at
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>>> >>>
>>> >>__________
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>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> my website:
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> my blog:
>>> http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>>> skype: st8amnd127
>>> My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>> --
>> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer Abilitiessoft, Inc.
>> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
>> Madison, Wisconsin USA
>> Developing software for people with disabilities
>>
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