whew! I didn't want to feel like I needed to make war on folks that I have had long time respect for
rick, and Katherine, all is cool, it was just that it felt like getting hammered to me over here, and I wasn't even the focus of the comments,
take care, elf Moderator, Blind Access Help Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises Specialists in customized computers and peripherals - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! www.alacorncomputer.com proprietor, The Grab Bag, for blind computer users and programmers http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com----- Original Message ----- From: "Katherine Moss" <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 9:59 PM Subject: RE: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.
Oops my bad. Forget I said anything. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 9:32 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxxSubject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.Elf: You are correct indirectly. I should have focused more on the action itself. Chris has indeed been a list veteran and I have always had good relations with him. Chris, if I hurt your feelings I apologize. That said, your skirting legalities is a bad thing and can get you into trouble. Try and play it straight when it comes to Business or the Law. A police record will stay with you a long time.It also takes a long time to build respect and trust with some smart peopleand people in responsible positions. Once you get a reputation it is hard to change. Once you put anything on the internet, or on a e-list, it never completely goes away. I guess that is all I have on that post. Rick USA----- Original Message ----- From: "The Elf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 7:11 PMSubject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.ah, folks! if you don't agree with something that is fine, but... most of you know how long I have been a member of this list, and although I hold no official capacity here, due to not wishing to (I was offered ownership at two points) I will make a large and loud post against the line here. Chris has been a valued and appreciated boon to this community for a long time, rick you should know this, and has done a lot of helpful work out here if you disagree, fine, your permitted to say so, but do! not! disparage! the person! in my presence, or face the wrath! elf Moderator, Blind Access Help Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises Specialists in customized computers and peripherals - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! www.alacorncomputer.com proprietor, The Grab Bag, for blind computer users and programmers http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com----- Original Message ----- From: "Katherine Moss" <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:10 PM Subject: RE: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.And jees, Rick, look at his email address! That's fishy right there. One who should get knocked off the list. Who moderates this thing, and I'll be sure to let them know off list. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 5:59 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced. Hi Chris: I disagree. That is not only illegal but dishonest. Can I ever invite you over to my house to meet my family? I have a Daughter, my financial papers are in a cabnet and I have valuables around the house. No,I think me and my family would be better off not associating with someonelike you and your ilk. It is not easy trying to be a good man but it is what earns respect andtrust. I hope you never need a job from any Government Agency representedby folks on this list or any who are working in the Public Sector. Oh ya, I remember postings from someone in one of the Attorney Generals Office, hope you are not in their jurisdiction. There is another fellow who works in another Government agency who mightfind this post of interest who works with Disability employment and mighttake offense at your attitude as it reflects on other blind folks. Even the List Manager might not like your pushing illegal activities on this list. Perhaps they might just drop a line to your boss or your school, or, perhaps pay your friends a visit. Rick USA----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 1:39 PM Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.As we are all involved in "lifelong learning," I contend that we all qualify for the student discounted version of all software. So, go to ebayand find any of a number of resellers who charge the student rate and bedone with it. If you disagree with this sort of behavior, come over to theFLOSS world where we respect your freedom as hackers to have all of the tools you will ever need and have the source code so you can, if you want,improve them or learn from them or just have fun changing them around forexperimental purposes. We've loads of programming and development toolsand a community to help you learn and support the whole thing. There's noethical quandary over price, copying, hacking or doing anything you like with our programs - you are free to do whatever you like and not need todeal with ugly licenses owned by Microsoft with which you must agree or you can't even install their programs. cdh On 07/29/2010 05:26 AM, RicksPlace wrote:Hi Alex and Ken: This discussion was hashed out about 5 years ago when Ken, Will Pearson, Jamal and others were first planning the JAWS Scripts.5 years later Ken is pretty much the sole Manager, cook and bottle washerfor the JAWS Scripts. The VS 2010 costs something like $700 for that onepackage and it changes every couple years so it is pretty expensive foranyone not employed by a company or institution where it is provided freeto the programmer. .. Perhaps WindowEyes will continue to work pretty well out of the box withVS when they implement UIA and the new Web Hooks.Also, their COM interface might offer a good platform for making VS moreaccessible. The PlugIn idea Ken mentioned should work very well indeed.Problem there is the development of such a PlugIn would require havingthe expensive version of VS and it would not work with the free versionwhich most folks use when learning to program in one of the Visual Languages as you have seen on list over the past few months. Rick USA. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:30 AM Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced. Hi, Ken, It's a bit of a conundrum. The free version is buggy and inaccessible so, we are reluctant to use it. The paid version is well, ... expensive. Noone will want to shell out money for the paid version of a free software they couldn't access because of the fear of buying something they won't be able ot use. The ideal thing would be for someone who is enrolled in a college or university and thus able to download the full version for free to have a nice, thorough lok at it, script it and then share or sell the scripts. I'd pay for scripts if I was sure they would work. Alex M On 7/28/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:I think its fine with Jaws as long as you use the scripts. The problem is we are not even taking advantage of half of what visual studio allows because we have one set of scripts for the free version and the pay. Ifwe made a version of scripts for the pay version that has automation we couldaccess everything. In fact they have made it so accessible if someonewas to sit down they could re write the entire interface using the API's they have. It's not that it's not accessible it's that the current IDE is not designed for blind in mind but you see Microsoft has given us the power to make it both usable and accessible.. Ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andreas Stefik Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 9:20 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced. My research team just finished some usability testing with blind children using visual studio 2010 and JAWS 11. The students were able to use it to complete simple problems, but VS 2010 has a pretty large laundry list of accessibility problems, in my opinion. Stefik On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Katherine Moss <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:I don't see how version 2010 is inaccessible though. I was on my desktopathome and I was placing buttons on a winform app as well as setting their properties correctly. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:30 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are gettingdivorced.VS 2005 and 2008 are both made accessible with the jaws scripts and information available at my grab bag site (URL under my name) and/or with information and/or tools available at non visualdevelopment.orgwww.NonvisualDevelopment.org and has been for years HTH, inthane Moderator, Blind Access Help Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises Specialists in customized computers and peripherals - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! www.alacorncomputer.com proprietor, The Grab Bag, for blind computer users and programmers http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Gallik" <BillGallik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 10:22 AM Subject: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.The last time I attempted to teach myself C++ in the Visual Studio SDEI found it basically inaccessible. Has there been a significantprogressiontoward accessibility in the Visual Studio environment? It would seem, judging from all the respondants to this thread -- that Visual Studio has indeed become more screen reader friendly. And, if so, which version(s)? ---- Holland's Person, Bill E-Mail: BillGallik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx - The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese! __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virussignaturedatabase 5321 (20100728) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virussignaturedatabase 5321 (20100728) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5324 (20100729) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5324 (20100729) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signaturedatabase 5324 (20100729) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signaturedatabase 5324 (20100729) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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