RE: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.
- From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 07:24:29 -0400
Agreed on all points.
Take care,
Sina
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:20 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Sina Bahram; 'Andreas Stefik'
Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.
Thanks -- that's good information. I agree about the power of the VS COM
object model to do just about anything. The problem with
that approach, as you know, is that it does not work in the free version of VS,
which many blind programmers would be using. Of
course, others should not be held back as professional developers with a
commercial VS version. I just hope that scripting can
provide an accessible baseline available to everyone, and then additional or
alternate power available to those who can afford (or
otherwise obtain) a commercial VS. Perhaps those should be separate projects.
At this point, the COM approach seems actually more
viable, since screen readers have strong COM client support but are lacking in
UIA support in their scripting languages.
Jamal
On 7/30/2010 7:00 AM, Sina Bahram wrote:
> Well, it's not only UIA which is underutilized.
>
> There is a virtual plethora of information, both semantically
> contextual, and also absolutely referenceable, all of which is available via
> their com object into the IDE itself.
>
> For example, not only can one perform analysis of a code file based on
> primitives such as object level traversal of functional blocks, but
> one can also loop through constructs such as the characters of a line of
> code, through the properties of whom one can learn about
highlighted errors, debug break points, etc, etc.
>
> Heck, one example I coded up back in VS2005 was the idea that you
> could code something up in notepad, then export it to VS2005,
> programmatically, via jaws script, for compilation, error checking,
and so on.
>
> I don't' remember all the specifics, but what I do remember is that it
> leaned towards the trivial, not the complex, and this was before the even
> more extravagant expansion of said com object in vs2008
and 2010.
>
> I mention such things in response to your email to point out that the
> follow up really needs to be from us, the community. We need to take
> advantage and harness the actual power provided by this API, com object,
> whatever you want to refer to it as, to facilitate a
rather immersive accessible, and what's more: usable, programming experience
for the blind/VI developer.
>
> With respect to your specific question about follow-up on their part.
> I remember them following up on our comments regarding the html
> creation and web application development issues of vs2008. they were
> internally disappointed with the level of accessibility there. Most
> inevitably due to their rather successful presentation of a valid
> interaction model in other parts of the IDE. This is something that I
> believe got severely overhauled in 2008 and then further in 2010 because of
> architectural issues as well as usability ones in .net
3.0, and then later on, 4.0. I must admit that when I think web app
development, I tend towards the java applications, Perl scripts,
php pages, and similar light weight development practices of our trade;
however, I do know some successful asp.net programmers;
thus, I am lead to believe the situation has actually improved since 2005.
>
> As far as obstacles. Honestly, they were not really conceptual,
> although they did have some best practices questions for us, as well
> as some strategy based dilemmas they were interested in solving. I'll flatter
> Ken, and in a smaller part myself, by saying that we
were able to help out, but I have every confidence they would have arrived at
decent solutions on their own to such investigations.
> Instead, their obstacles were those real world complexities of product
> delivery cycles, allocation of appropriate resources, lacking of
> course the most important one of time, and similar inconveniences that lead
> software a stray for all the right reasons but in all
the wrong ways.
>
> I think, to some part, this has been addressed by the recent
> reorganization of certain groups within MS, but let's be realistic, such
> things are unavoidable in a project of that size and
complexity.
>
> With respect to continuing a dialog, I would say that they were more
> than open. We followed up with them several times on our own issues, but they
> were also down right interested in systemic
accessibility concerns.
>
> Aaron, whose last name I don't recall right now, introduced me to
> several of the team members who worked for him, and also some of his
> colleagues. He's since moved on to bigger and better things,
I think within Microsoft, but I could be mistaken about that.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal
> Mazrui
> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 6:21 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: Sina Bahram; 'Andreas Stefik'
> Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.
>
> I agree that UIA is sadly under utilized by screen readers. I'm
> curious
> -- to what extent did they follow up on your feedback and resolve
> problems? What obstacles did they face? What interest was there in
> continuing a dialog?
>
> Jamal
>
> On 7/30/2010 6:09 AM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>> I know that MS is most likely aware of several of these issues. Due
>> to a project we were working on at the time, I was able to get us
>> access to some of the core developers and product managers of VS, and
>> Ken and I conducted a conference call with them back a couple of
> years ago where we highlighted a lot of the fundamental accessibility issues.
>>
>> It's nice to see some of those concerns seriously addressed, both
>> systemically and also, in part, specifically, in VS 2010, but there
>> is a great deal of work to be done client side to take advantage of
>> the myriad of accessibility and rich semantic information that VS
> offers; however, that no assistive technology actually bothers utilizing.
>>
>> I won't speak for Ken, but I, at least, was definitely impressed with
>> their grasp of the relevant accessibility and usability issues, along with
>> their realistic approach to the situation.
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal
>> Mazrui
>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:33 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Cc: Andreas Stefik
>> Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.
>>
>> Andreas,
>> By any chance, is there a report on this topic by your research team
>> that you can share? It could be helpful in highlighting aspects of
>> VS2010 that need screen reader scripting. It could also be conveyed
>> to Microsoft to help it understand problems that we are
> encountering with this latest VS.
>>
>> Jamal
>>
>>
>> On 7/28/2010 9:20 PM, Andreas Stefik wrote:
>>> My research team just finished some usability testing with blind
>>> children using visual studio 2010 and JAWS 11. The students were
>>> able to use it to complete simple problems, but VS 2010 has a pretty
>>> large laundry list of accessibility problems, in my opinion.
>>>
>>> Stefik
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Katherine Moss
>>> <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> I don't see how version 2010 is inaccessible though. I was on my
>>>> desktop at home and I was placing buttons on a winform app as well
>>>> as setting their properties correctly.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:30 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting
>>>> divorced.
>>>>
>>>> VS 2005 and 2008 are both made accessible with the jaws scripts and
>>>> information available at my grab bag site (URL under my name)
>>>>
>>>> and/or with information and/or tools available at non visual
>>>> development.org www.NonvisualDevelopment.org
>>>>
>>>> and has been for years
>>>>
>>>> HTH,
>>>> inthane
>>>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>>>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises Specialists in customized
>>>> computers and peripherals
>>>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>>>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>>>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>>>> for blind computer users and programmers
>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Bill Gallik"<BillGallik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 10:22 AM
>>>> Subject: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The last time I attempted to teach myself C++ in the Visual Studio
>>>>> SDE I found it basically inaccessible. Has there been a
>>>>> significant progression
>>>>
>>>>> toward accessibility in the Visual Studio environment? It would
>>>>> seem, judging from all the respondants to this thread -- that
>>>>> Visual Studio has indeed become more screen reader friendly. And, if so,
>>>>> which version(s)?
>>>>> ----
>>>>> Holland's Person, Bill
>>>>> E-Mail: BillGallik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> - The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!
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