Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.

I think the idea behind floss is that your using something that people work on because they want to. Sure, I'd like to get paid for programming, but at the end of the day, right now I just do it because it's free and fun. I don't have to pay for a lot of the stuff I use because I go the open source route, and I can experiment and add to it. A lot of the software that is closed source is ok too sometimes, but that's not floss. I've found that I trust something a lot more that I can poke at the code of, rather than some programmer who might get his kicks from adding little problems to his code to solve some anger management issue or another.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.


What is floss?  I personally don't have a problem with someone
charging for software.  Microsoft provides a product that does a
valuable thing.  they have to pay their people from somewhare and
sales revenue is how they do it.  What I object to is spending money
on something I can't use to the full because of accessibility issues.
I find it a double standard to some day aspire to code for a living
and not be willing to pay for the product that is the end result of
the coding efforts of others.  Pretty iffy about the eBay route too
which you suggested.  Last thing I want is to get into some legal
trouble with a giant like Microsoft when all I have to do is wait a
bit, enroll in classes I'm going to take anyway, and get the stuff
legitimately for free.

Alex M



On 7/29/10, Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
As we are all involved in "lifelong learning," I contend that we all
qualify for the student discounted version of all software. So, go to
ebay and find any of a number of resellers who charge the student rate
and be done with it. If you disagree with this sort of behavior, come
over to the FLOSS world where we respect your freedom as hackers to have
all of the tools you will ever need and have the source code so you can,
if you want, improve them or learn from them or just have fun changing
them around for experimental purposes. We've loads of programming and
development  tools and a community to help you learn and support the
whole thing. There's no ethical quandary over price, copying, hacking or
doing anything you like with our programs - you are free to do whatever
you like and not need to deal with ugly licenses owned by Microsoft with
which you must agree or you can't even install their programs.

cdh



On 07/29/2010 05:26 AM, RicksPlace wrote:
Hi Alex and Ken: This discussion was hashed out about 5 years ago when
Ken, Will Pearson, Jamal and others were first planning the JAWS
Scripts. 5 years later Ken is pretty much the sole Manager, cook and
bottle washer for the JAWS Scripts. The VS 2010 costs something like
$700 for that one package and it changes every couple years so it is
pretty expensive for anyone not employed by a company or institution
where it is provided free to the programmer. .. Perhaps WindowEyes
will continue to work pretty well out of the box withVS when they
implement UIA and the new Web Hooks. Also, their COM interface might
offer a good platform for making VS more accessible. The PlugIn idea
Ken mentioned should work very well indeed. Problem there is the
development of such a PlugIn would require having the expensive
version of VS and it would not work with the free version which most
folks use when learning to program in one of the Visual Languages as
you have seen on list over the past few months.
Rick USA.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Midence"
<alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 3:30 AM
Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting
divorced.


Hi, Ken,

It's a bit of a conundrum.  The free version is buggy and inaccessible
so, we are reluctant to use it.  The paid version is well, ...
expensive.  Noone will want to shell out money for the paid version of
a free software they couldn't access because of the fear of buying
something they won't be able ot use.  The ideal thing would be for
someone who is enrolled in a college or university and thus able to
download the full version for free to have a nice, thorough lok at it,
script it and then share or sell the scripts.  I'd pay for scripts if
I was sure they would work.

Alex M

On 7/28/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I think its fine with Jaws as long as you use the scripts.  The
problem is
we are not even taking advantage of half of what visual studio allows
because we have one set of scripts for the free version and the pay.
If we
made a version of scripts for the pay version that has automation we
could
access everything.  In fact they have made it so accessible if
someone was
to sit down they could re write the entire interface using the API's
they
have.  It's not that it's not accessible it's that the current IDE is
not
designed for blind in mind but you see Microsoft has given us the
power to
make it both usable and accessible..

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andreas
Stefik
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 9:20 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting
divorced.

My research team just finished some usability testing with blind
children using visual studio 2010 and JAWS 11. The students were able
to use it to complete simple problems, but VS 2010 has a pretty large
laundry list of accessibility problems, in my opinion.

Stefik

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Katherine Moss
<plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I don't see how version 2010 is inaccessible though. I was on my
desktop
at
home and I was placing buttons on a winform app as well as setting
their
properties correctly.

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:30 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting
divorced.

VS 2005 and 2008 are both made accessible with the jaws scripts and
information available at my grab bag site (URL under my name)

and/or with information and/or tools available at non visual
development.org
www.NonvisualDevelopment.org

and has been for years

HTH,
inthane
Moderator, Blind Access Help
Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
- own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
www.alacorncomputer.com
proprietor, The Grab Bag,
for blind computer users and programmers
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Gallik" <BillGallik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 10:22 AM
Subject: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting
divorced.


The last time I attempted to teach myself C++ in the Visual Studio
SDE I
found it basically inaccessible. Has there been a significant
progression

toward accessibility in the Visual Studio environment? It would seem,
judging from all the respondants to this thread -- that Visual
Studio has
indeed become more screen reader friendly. And, if so, which
version(s)?
----
Holland's Person, Bill
E-Mail: BillGallik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the
cheese!
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