Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: Tyler Littlefield <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:47:48 -0600

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The price is good?
for the price Ipaid for my macbook, Icould've easily built a system with
16 gb ram, duel processors and still possibly had some left over. Their
price is nuts. Granted you don't pay $260 bucks for two licenses when a
new version of jaws will come out once every 6 months or so, but...
Apple's prices are insane.
On 10/14/2010 1:43 PM, Jay Macarty wrote:
> I'm not sure about how I feel regarding a screen reader built into the
> OS; however, I do know that having the same vendor who produces the OS
> also write a screen reader for it can, if done properly, be very
> powerful. I refer back, for those who are old enough to remember, to the
> IBM Screen Reader/2 which was written for the OS/2 machines back in the
> early 90s. It was, in my opinion, one of the most powerful screen
> readers ever developed. I was a beta tester and contributer of scripts
> and the guys in the Special Needs team remarked, on more than one
> occasion, that it certainly helps writing a screen reader when you have
> full access to the team writing the OS.
> 
> Could Apple do a better job with VoiceOver since they own the OS they
> are writing the screen reader for? Probably so, but at least it's a good
> start for what it does. And, the price is good. <smile>
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 2:29 PM
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> 
> 
> Hi,
> One reason might be that consumers like choice in how things work. If MS
> built speech in, I'd hope that the interface could be adjusted as much
> as possible to the needs of the person using it.
> 
> Jim
> 
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bryan Schulz
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:06 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> 
> why would you not be in favor of ms including speech that could equal or
> beat jaws?
> the main factor that jacks the price of jaws is a target group of users.
> the cost of development would be spread among everyone who uses windows
> instead of the group of us who continually pay jaws for not much
> improvement.
> 
> 
> Bryan Schulz
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 11:48 AM
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> 
> 
> Hi,
> I'd be in favor of an OS that works for everyone including people who are
> blind, not one just for the blind. We all live in the same world. I don't
> think I'm in favor of an OS that includes a screen reader, but I haven't
> given that a lot of thought.
> 
> Jim
> 
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 11:59 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> 
> Hi Ken.
> The Ipod shuffle and devices which don't have a screen are generally
> devices which do a specific task, in this case play media files.
> What I think was being suggested was an OS specifically for the blind
> which doesn't need an expensive screen reader or a screen reader at all.
> IMO that's in practical.
> 
> Your absolutely write, theirs many software jobs which doesn't involve
> the writing of UI and in my experience your also write in that the
> design of UI for applications and devices which need it is now becoming
> the remit of human factors engineers, often not the same person as the
> engineer that actually does the work.
> 
> My real point is that the vast majority of software engineers, even if
> they specialise in embedded type stuff, will have some basic
> understanding of how to put a GUI together and if they don't the tools,
> vs form designer and the like make, make it very easy to learn. There
> for to make a blind software engineer comparable with our sighted
> counterparts GUI design is probably something we should understand.
> 
> Your also write that there are many situations where a software engineer
> doesn't need to produce a UI. I'm in a job where in 5 and a half years
> I've only ever had to do it twice. But there are also just as many, if
> not more, where having some knowledge is useful, even if its to avoid
> the UI designers pulling a fast one on you.
> 
> Thanks.
> Nick.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: 14 October 2010 15:34
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> 
> Yes well I was answering this part of your email
> 
> You said,
> "I also think the idea of an OS which doesn't have a GUI which would
> avoid having to have a complex expensive screen reader on is a nice idea
> in theory but there are a couple of points which would make it in
> practical. This OS would typically be for the VI market, which means it"
> 
> 
> The shuffle is an OS and there are lots others like it that use xml
> interfaces to configure and use the point is you can be a coder a very
> good
> one without ever doing any UI programming.  I don't see it as limiting I
> see
> it as specializing.  Think of the amount of programming people at
> Lexmart do
> for their printers and the amount of UI involved in that.  Same goes for
> many device programming and all of them have OS of types and very little
> UI
> involved.  I am not saying this to say don't learn to make UI I am
> saying
> you can definitely find work as a specialist if you know what you're
> doing.
> 
> 
> EI know of many companies in Utah that don't even have the main coders
> making UI because yes they pay lower level coders only 12$ to 15$ an
> hour
> where they pay people that like to do the low level stuff like me more
> than
> 28 an hour.  The point is UI is important but a trained sited painter
> could
> do it with little training on the computer.
> 
> Ken
> 
> Ken
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 9:41 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> 
> thanks Jim,
> You said what I was going to.
> 
> Thanks.
> Nick.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
> Sent: 14 October 2010 14:37
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> 
> Hi,
> Ken, when you say this, keep in mind the environment the user is using
> the device in. While they are driving, they want to reach over and turn
> up the volume or pick another tune. They want to keep their eyes on the
> road while they hear the speech or whatever. While they are in front of
> a computer, they want to see what's going on, and that needs to be
> pleasing.
> 
> Jim
> 
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:37 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> 
> Really then the IPod shuffle puts the lie to your argument.  A good
> interface can do without a GUI.  True it's not a high tech device but it
> has
> no GUI its cheap and they sell millions.  Oh and the Braille+ also has
> no
> gui and well we have a few sited coders on it that like it to use in the
> car.
> 
> Ken
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:20 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> 
> Hi.
> 
> In answer to the subject field my answer is yes.
> Just a couple of thoughts.
> We have got to be careful about limiting our selves.
> I'm in general agreement with what's been said however we have to face
> facts. We live in a visual world. When I tell people I'm a computer
> programmer almost the first question I get asked is how can you see the
> screen.
> 
> I also think the idea of an OS which doesn't have a GUI which would
> avoid having to have a complex expensive screen reader on is a nice idea
> in theory but there are a couple of points which would make it in
> practical. This OS would typically be for the VI market, which means it
> would be a specialist development. This means it would need to be open
> source or proprietary for an access tech company. If you think screen
> readers are complex they are nothing to a full operating system. This
> would indicate that the price would be hefty Or not commercially
> supported in the instance of an Open source OS.
> The other major limitation on a new OS would be support in an industrial
> environment. For example the company I work for has a specific build of
> windows XP aloud on the network, it won't let you have other builds of
> XP connected unless otherwise approved and just forget about non windows
> based OS, not a chance, this is not that unusual in a work environment.
> Also I would be afraid that it would button hole us and make it harder
> for one of us to get a job as a software engineer. If you tern up for a
> job interview and you don't have any experience developing for the
> platform your potential employer targets its another thing that marks
> you down in comparison to anyone else going for the job.
> 
> The other worry is if a blind developer had no GUI development skills at
> all. As has been said on this thread for a sighted person to put
> together a gui its pretty quick so its a normal thing a sighted
> developer can do.
> I'd like to think that I'm someone who will give almost anything ago and
> try not to let the fact I can't see a screen make a difference to the
> work I do.
> With this philosophy in mind there are 2 questions I was asked that a
> normal developer wouldn't have been in the job interview which resulted
> in me getting the job I've been doing for the last 5 and a half years.
> 1. How would you be able to use the graphical UML design tools and show
> software design in a similar way to other developers?
> 2. Can and how do you develop GUI's.
> 
> Write away there you can see the interviewer seeing problems that need
> to be answered to find out if I can do the job. I know some people who
> would have thought it improper to ask these questions but in my mind if
> they hadn't been asked there would have still been a question mark next
> to me when it came down to selecting the successful candidate.
> 
> I've been told since that it was the "I may not do it in the normal way
> but it will get done" attitude of the answers that I gave which swayed
> the panel in my way as it showed my attitude to everything, not just my
> blindness.
> 
> If my answers would have been
> 1. I don't do graphical design. Its pointless, I do everything in a text
> file.
> 2. I don't do GUI's, other people are better at it than I am.
> 
> It shows a defeatist attitude, not something most employers are looking
> for.
> Yes, sighted people can be quicker at both these particular software
> skills but other things I bring to the table I could be better at than
> others in the team, not because I'm blind but because I just am. A team
> is made up of individuals with varying skills.
> 
> Lets not get away from the fact that the negative answers above do have
> an element of truth. If I had my way my design wouldn't be done in UML
> and I wouldn't do GUI development but I don't work in a bubble. Sighted
> people review, approve and use software and designs that I've generated
> and as I said we live in a visual world.
> 
> Anyway, enough rambling from me.
> Thanks
> Nick.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
> Roos
> Sent: 13 October 2010 16:08
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> 
> This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
> accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again with
> a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.
> 
> 
> I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
> to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that
> can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that
> the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very
> simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive
> task in all fairness.
> 
> I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
> examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
> ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
> file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of
> aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an
> example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to
> show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages.
> Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's a
> service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's
> worth.
> 
> We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
> rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
> accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
> field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there
> is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
> computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person
> could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas
> where having no or little sight might aid you!
> 
> One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
> springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that
> saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious
> man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in
> after we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we
> really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it
> from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project
> was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics
> the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and hours
> on the little GUI side of the software.
> 
> It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make
> appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some
> software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with
> the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,,
> areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact .
> 
> It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm
> wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people
> are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should
> commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted
> OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced
> and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all.
> 
> And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
> development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle.
> Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves
> and our value to a software development shop developing for the general
> public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for
> one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years experience
> as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with
> when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience
> than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
> time and with less effort.
> 
> My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
> programming and computer science where visually impaired people can
> excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
> increasingly important part.
> 
> Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start
> and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then
> sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer
> (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with
> confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a
> company.
> 
> Kerneels
> 
> On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote:
> 
> 
>        I would advise spending time on web development with java on the
> server side. Either that or headless java development such as web
> services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong
> java developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the
> constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills
> in an API, swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large
> traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead,
> I can't push it into a project here because it is not an accepted
> technology by our enterprise architects.
> 
>        ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>        To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>        Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM
>        Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
> 
> 
>        Hi Jay,
>        Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on
> Swing, SWT, or web?
> 
>        Thanks.
> 
>        Jim
> 
>        Jim Homme,
>        Usability Services,
>        Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>        Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
> advice
> 
> 
>        -----Original Message-----
>        From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty
>        Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM
>        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>        Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
> 
>        Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring
> java
>        developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble
> with is
>        finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there
> are
>        certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a
> lot of java
>        development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to
> using web
>        based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining
> interest in using
>        swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on
> swing
>        accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of
> us who
>        still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot.
> 
> 
>        ----- Original Message -----
>        From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO"
> <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>        To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>        Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM
>        Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
> 
> 
>        Hi Listers,
> 
>        I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that
> needing government
>        contracts in the United States would have some affect on all
> this. I have
>        asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much
> because there
>        is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java
> programmer so
>        maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use
> Struts at my
>        building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a
> fool of myself,
>        it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin).
> 
>        Susie Stanzel
> 
>        -----Original Message-----
>        From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>        [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The
> Elf
>        Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
>        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>        Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
> 
>        hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol
> 
>        or hound,or pummel,  or...
> 
>        elf
>        Moderator, Blind Access Help
>        Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>        Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>        - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>        www.alacorncomputer.com
>        proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>        for blind computer users and programmers
>        http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> 
>        ----- Original Message -----
>        From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
>        To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>        Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
>        Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
> 
> 
> 
> 
>                Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but
> finally the voice of
>                reason has made itself known.
> 
>                Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure
> them into actually
>                not abandoning it.
> 
>                Take care,
>                Sina
> 
>                ________________________________
> 
>                From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>                [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Ken Perry
>                Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
>                To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>                Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious
> consideration, IMHO
> 
> 
> 
>                If this is true then it's not time to tell people to
> stay away.  It's time
>                to get people to get active and start emailing and
>                calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away
> we lose what
>                accessibility was there.
> 
> 
> 
>                Ken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>                From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>                [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Storm Dragon
>                Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
>                To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>                Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious
> consideration, IMHO
> 
> 
> 
>                Hi,
>                I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the
> ball on Linux
>                accessibility pretty much first thing when they took
> over Sun.
>                It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over
> software decisions,
>                to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far
> 
>                far away from Oracle and their software. I was even
> going to get rid of
>                Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu
> is a
>                fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they
> somehow manage to win
>                their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows
> who
>                they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and
> maybe the open
>                source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is
> still
>                alive and well after all.
>                Storm
> 
>                --
> 
> 
>                Registered Linux user number 508465:
>                http://counter.li.org/
>                My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
>                http://www.stormdragon.us/
>                Get yourself a Frostbox:
>                http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
> 
> 
>                On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal
> wrote:
> 
> 
>                oh know,
>                i wish its just a rumor.
>                if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.
> 
>                regards,
>                prateek agarwal.
> 
> 
> 
>                On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
> 
> 
>                        I heard from a good source today that Oracle has
> decided to discontinue
>                        support for the Java Access Bridge (and no
> alternative is planned).  I
>                        would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If
> anyone has information
>                        regarding this topic, please share.
> 
>                        Jamal
> 
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> 
> -- 
> Kerneels Roos
> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
> Skype: cornelis.roos
> 
> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .
> 
> "The Strawberry Jam Law:
>  The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
>   -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.
> 
> 
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- -- 
Thanks,
Tyler Littlefield
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