RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26" <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 12:05:20 -0400

Sounds like those Microsoft usability standards could do with a rewrite
or two.


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:47
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
Coders?

Jim,

These allow you to layout  a GUI, but not one that really meets any kind
of visual aesthetic. I know Jamal says he consulted the
Microsoft usability guidelines, if I'm not mistaken, for LBC; however,
there again, it's the difference between making a usable
visual UI and a mathematically derived one that looks completely
different than anything else on the computer.

 This is an extremely hard problem to solve because of the levels of
design that really go into good functional user interfaces, in
the visual domain. Layout managers, like the ones found in java, are
quite fantastic, but it really takes someone with a good
understanding of HCI and user factors engineering and so on, before you
get a user interface that is easily usable by the sighted
public.

Take care,
Sina

________________________________

From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:38 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
Coders?



Hi Guys,

In all honesty, I feel that you have a fighting chance. 

 

In the Windows, Microsoft world, there is Jamal's stuff. I don't know
enough about how it all works to recommend the exact set up
that might be best, but I'm sure Jamal would chime in here. Look at the
packages called lbc, IniForm, HomerJacs, and LBC.Net.

In the other stuff area, you have these. I would think that in the Java
world, you would have Swing, with various kinds of layout
mechanisms, and SWT, with all of its power. With languages like Python,
C++, and Perl, you'd have the WX stuff at your disposal. 

 

I say don't give up, and report back how you are doing so that we can
help you through it. Don't worry, I'll be doing what I'm
talking about before long.

 

Jim

Jim Homme,

Usability Services,

Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme

Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog
<http://mysites.highmark.com/personal/lidikki/Blog/default.aspx> .
Discuss
accessibility here
<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/default.asp
x> . Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news
and accessibility advice
<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/Accessibili
ty%20Wiki/Forms/AllPages.aspx> 

 

From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
Roos
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:08 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

 

This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it
again with a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.


 I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for
someone that can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I
would say that the FB examples are indicative of this, since the
FB concept is very simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a
GUI  is a massive task in all fairness. 

I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the
purpose of aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything
but an example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples
are -- tools to show you simple GUI creation in various programming
languages. Personally I think it's great and I commend all the
contributors. It's a service to the community, but sighted people will
struggle to see it's worth. 

We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet
there is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind
person could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be
areas where having no or little sight might aid you! 

One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or
Swing that saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a
gracious man, and he gave us a nice score for the project,
but he stepped in after we did our presentation and basically told the
class that we really did spend much time on this and that we
didn't just download it from the net or something... He did this, I
think, because our project was fairly inferiour graphic wise
compaired to the elaborate graphics the other student's projects sported
even though I spent hours and hours on the little GUI side
of the software. 

It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make
appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the
struggles some software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how
people cope with the worst of situations, but there are also
better areas to focus on,, areas where you'll be far more productive and
make a better impact . 

It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm
wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way
disabled people are trained up to believe that interaction with
computers should commence in the generally accepted form of having a
"normal" or sighted OS with all highly graphical applications with a
rediculously advanced and complex and expensive screen reader
stuck on top of it all. 

And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an
obsticle. Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote
ourselves and our value to a software development shop
developing for the general public or business where accessibility is of
little concern. Myself for one have a little bit of a
complex when think of all my years experience as a software developer
and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with when having
to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience than myself
could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
time and with less effort. 

My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
programming and computer science where visually impaired people
can excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
increasingly important part. 

Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start
and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas
and then sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind
programmer (in the identified fields) could approach any
development house with confidence of his / her abilities and value she /
he will add to a company. 

Kerneels 

On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote: 



I would advise spending time on web development with java on the server
side. Either that or headless java development such as web
services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong
java developer with very marketable skill sets without
fighting the constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to
gain skills in an API, swt, which may have somewhat limited
acceptence in a large traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt;
however, as a tech lead, I can't push it into a project here
because it is not an accepted technology by our enterprise architects. 

----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
<james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>  
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM 
Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 


Hi Jay, 
Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on Swing, SWT,
or web? 

Thanks. 

Jim 

Jim Homme, 
Usability Services, 
Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme 
Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
advice 


-----Original Message----- 
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty 
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM 
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 

Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring java 
developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble with is 
finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there are 
certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a lot of
java 
development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to using web 
based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining interest in
using 
swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on swing 
accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of us who 
still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot. 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO" <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>  
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM 
Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 


Hi Listers, 

I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing
government 
contracts in the United States would have some affect on all this. I
have 
asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much because
there 
is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java programmer
so 
maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use Struts at
my 
building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool of
myself, 
it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin). 

Susie Stanzel 

-----Original Message----- 
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf 
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM 
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 

hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol 

or hound,or pummel,  or... 

elf 
Moderator, Blind Access Help 
Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises 
Specialists in customized computers and peripherals 
- own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! 
www.alacorncomputer.com 
proprietor, The Grab Bag, 
for blind computer users and programmers 
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>  
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM 
Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 





Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the voice
of 
reason has made itself known. 

Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into actually 
not abandoning it. 

Take care, 
Sina 

________________________________ 

From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry 
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM 
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 



If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away.  It's
time 
to get people to get active and start emailing and 
calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away we lose what 
accessibility was there. 



Ken 





From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm Dragon

Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM 
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 



Hi, 
I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux 
accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun. 
It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software
decisions, 
to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far 
far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get rid of 
Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a 
fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage to win

their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who 
they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the open 
source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still 
alive and well after all. 
Storm 

-- 


Registered Linux user number 508465: 
http://counter.li.org/ 
My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon: 
http://www.stormdragon.us/ 
Get yourself a Frostbox: 
http://www.frostbitesystems.com/ 


On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote: 


oh know, 
i wish its just a rumor. 
if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said. 

regards, 
prateek agarwal. 



On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote: 



I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to discontinue 
support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative is planned).  I 
would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If anyone has information 
regarding this topic, please share. 

Jamal 

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-- 
Kerneels Roos 
Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998 
Skype: cornelis.roos 

"Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" . 

"The Strawberry Jam Law: 
  The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..." 
   -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting. 


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