RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26" <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 09:47:40 -0400

I wish!  That would have fixed lots of things up.  Unfortunately
Microsoft can't write an operating system with enough quality in it to
prevent emacspeak from going toes up.  I had asked about this, and
apparently someone in Japan did try to make this work several years ago
but with no success.


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 9:42
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
Coders?

Hi Chris,
I truly wish I were brave enough to install Vinux. Someday I'll grab a
spare machine and give it a try. Does Emacs Speak happen to work on
Windows?

Jim

Jim Homme,
Usability Services,
Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
Hofstader
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:27 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
Coders?

Using emacspeak is sort of like having a fully accessible OS but in a
semi self voicing, semi screen reader environment. I like to use it for
programming but it is the ultimate talking multi-tool.

cdh
On Oct 14, 2010, at 4:19 AM, <Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

> Hi.
>
> In answer to the subject field my answer is yes.
> Just a couple of thoughts.
> We have got to be careful about limiting our selves.
> I'm in general agreement with what's been said however we have to face
> facts. We live in a visual world. When I tell people I'm a computer
> programmer almost the first question I get asked is how can you see
the
> screen.
>
> I also think the idea of an OS which doesn't have a GUI which would
> avoid having to have a complex expensive screen reader on is a nice
idea
> in theory but there are a couple of points which would make it in
> practical. This OS would typically be for the VI market, which means
it
> would be a specialist development. This means it would need to be open
> source or proprietary for an access tech company. If you think screen
> readers are complex they are nothing to a full operating system. This
> would indicate that the price would be hefty Or not commercially
> supported in the instance of an Open source OS.
> The other major limitation on a new OS would be support in an
industrial
> environment. For example the company I work for has a specific build
of
> windows XP aloud on the network, it won't let you have other builds of
> XP connected unless otherwise approved and just forget about non
windows
> based OS, not a chance, this is not that unusual in a work
environment.
> Also I would be afraid that it would button hole us and make it harder
> for one of us to get a job as a software engineer. If you tern up for
a
> job interview and you don't have any experience developing for the
> platform your potential employer targets its another thing that marks
> you down in comparison to anyone else going for the job.
>
> The other worry is if a blind developer had no GUI development skills
at
> all. As has been said on this thread for a sighted person to put
> together a gui its pretty quick so its a normal thing a sighted
> developer can do.
> I'd like to think that I'm someone who will give almost anything ago
and
> try not to let the fact I can't see a screen make a difference to the
> work I do.
> With this philosophy in mind there are 2 questions I was asked that a
> normal developer wouldn't have been in the job interview which
resulted
> in me getting the job I've been doing for the last 5 and a half years.
> 1. How would you be able to use the graphical UML design tools and
show
> software design in a similar way to other developers?
> 2. Can and how do you develop GUI's.
>
> Write away there you can see the interviewer seeing problems that need
> to be answered to find out if I can do the job. I know some people who
> would have thought it improper to ask these questions but in my mind
if
> they hadn't been asked there would have still been a question mark
next
> to me when it came down to selecting the successful candidate.
>
> I've been told since that it was the "I may not do it in the normal
way
> but it will get done" attitude of the answers that I gave which swayed
> the panel in my way as it showed my attitude to everything, not just
my
> blindness.
>
> If my answers would have been
> 1. I don't do graphical design. Its pointless, I do everything in a
text
> file.
> 2. I don't do GUI's, other people are better at it than I am.
>
> It shows a defeatist attitude, not something most employers are
looking
> for.
> Yes, sighted people can be quicker at both these particular software
> skills but other things I bring to the table I could be better at than
> others in the team, not because I'm blind but because I just am. A
team
> is made up of individuals with varying skills.
>
> Lets not get away from the fact that the negative answers above do
have
> an element of truth. If I had my way my design wouldn't be done in UML
> and I wouldn't do GUI development but I don't work in a bubble.
Sighted
> people review, approve and use software and designs that I've
generated
> and as I said we live in a visual world.
>
> Anyway, enough rambling from me.
> Thanks
> Nick.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
> Roos
> Sent: 13 October 2010 16:08
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
>
> This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
> accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again
with
> a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.
>
>
> I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
> to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that
> can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that
> the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very
> simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive
> task in all fairness.
>
> I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
> examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
> ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
> file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of
> aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an
> example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to
> show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages.
> Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's
a
> service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's
> worth.
>
> We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
> rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
> accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
> field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there
> is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
> computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person
> could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas
> where having no or little sight might aid you!
>
> One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
> springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing
that
> saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious
> man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in
> after we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we
> really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it
> from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project
> was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics
> the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and
hours
> on the little GUI side of the software.
>
> It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and
make
> appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles
some
> software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope
with
> the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,,
> areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact .
>
> It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What
I'm
> wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled
people
> are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should
> commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or
sighted
> OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced
> and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all.
>
> And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
> development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an
obsticle.
> Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves
> and our value to a software development shop developing for the
general
> public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself
for
> one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years
experience
> as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced
with
> when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience
> than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
> time and with less effort.
>
> My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
> programming and computer science where visually impaired people can
> excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
> increasingly important part.
>
> Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to
start
> and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then
> sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer
> (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with
> confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a
> company.
>
> Kerneels
>
> On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote:
>
>
>       I would advise spending time on web development with java on the
> server side. Either that or headless java development such as web
> services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very
strong
> java developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the
> constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills
> in an API, swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large
> traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech
lead,
> I can't push it into a project here because it is not an accepted
> technology by our enterprise architects.
>
>       ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM
>       Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
>
>
>       Hi Jay,
>       Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on
> Swing, SWT, or web?
>
>       Thanks.
>
>       Jim
>
>       Jim Homme,
>       Usability Services,
>       Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>       Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and
accessibility
> advice
>
>
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay
Macarty
>       Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM
>       To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>       Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
>
>       Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring
> java
>       developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble
> with is
>       finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there
> are
>       certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a
> lot of java
>       development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to
> using web
>       based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining
> interest in using
>       swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on
> swing
>       accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of
> us who
>       still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot.
>
>
>       ----- Original Message -----
>       From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO"
> <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM
>       Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
>
>
>       Hi Listers,
>
>       I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that
> needing government
>       contracts in the United States would have some affect on all
> this. I have
>       asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much
> because there
>       is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java
> programmer so
>       maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use
> Struts at my
>       building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a
> fool of myself,
>       it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin).
>
>       Susie Stanzel
>
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>       [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The
> Elf
>       Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
>       To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>       Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
>
>       hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol
>
>       or hound,or pummel,  or...
>
>       elf
>       Moderator, Blind Access Help
>       Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>       Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>       - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>       www.alacorncomputer.com
>       proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>       for blind computer users and programmers
>       http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>
>       ----- Original Message -----
>       From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
>       To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
>       Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
>
>
>
>
>               Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but
> finally the voice of
>               reason has made itself known.
>
>               Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure
> them into actually
>               not abandoning it.
>
>               Take care,
>               Sina
>
>               ________________________________
>
>               From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>               [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Ken Perry
>               Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
>               To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>               Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious
> consideration, IMHO
>
>
>
>               If this is true then it's not time to tell people to
> stay away.  It's time
>               to get people to get active and start emailing and
>               calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away
> we lose what
>               accessibility was there.
>
>
>
>               Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>               From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>               [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Storm Dragon
>               Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
>               To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>               Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious
> consideration, IMHO
>
>
>
>               Hi,
>               I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the
> ball on Linux
>               accessibility pretty much first thing when they took
> over Sun.
>               It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over
> software decisions,
>               to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far
>
>               far away from Oracle and their software. I was even
> going to get rid of
>               Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu
> is a
>               fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they
> somehow manage to win
>               their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows
> who
>               they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and
> maybe the open
>               source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is
> still
>               alive and well after all.
>               Storm
>
>               --
>
>
>               Registered Linux user number 508465:
>               http://counter.li.org/
>               My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
>               http://www.stormdragon.us/
>               Get yourself a Frostbox:
>               http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
>
>
>               On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal
> wrote:
>
>
>               oh know,
>               i wish its just a rumor.
>               if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.
>
>               regards,
>               prateek agarwal.
>
>
>
>               On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
>
>
>                       I heard from a good source today that Oracle has
> decided to discontinue
>                       support for the Java Access Bridge (and no
> alternative is planned).  I
>                       would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If
> anyone has information
>                       regarding this topic, please share.
>
>                       Jamal
>
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> --
> Kerneels Roos
> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
> Skype: cornelis.roos
>
> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .
>
> "The Strawberry Jam Law:
>  The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
>   -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.
>
>
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