RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26" <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 08:49:57 -0400

Going to Philadelphia?  If you get the chance, you might enjoy yourself
if you spend some time and money at the Reading Terminal Market.  I was
born in Philadelphia and spent a few of my younger years in and around
that city.  

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
Hofstader
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:42
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
Coders?
Importance: Low

I'll try to find an email I have somewhere in my archives that provides
really excellent instructions for installing emacspeak with either the
free espeak or the $6 version of Eloquence available for GNU/Linux
platforms.

You might look on the vinux site for a link to these instructions as I
got them from Bill Cox. I'll be in Philadelphia for a few days so may
not get to finding the instructions until next week.

I know it can be run on Windows but don't know how to tell you where to
look for instructions
On Oct 14, 2010, at 8:33 AM, DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
wrote:

> If I ever manage to get a speech server working with a modern version
of
> emacspeak I'll be a very happy camper.  That's a good package and it's
> getting better too.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
> Hofstader
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:27
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> 
> Using emacspeak is sort of like having a fully accessible OS but in a
> semi self voicing, semi screen reader environment. I like to use it
for
> programming but it is the ultimate talking multi-tool.
> 
> cdh
> On Oct 14, 2010, at 4:19 AM, <Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> 
>> Hi.
>> 
>> In answer to the subject field my answer is yes.
>> Just a couple of thoughts.
>> We have got to be careful about limiting our selves.
>> I'm in general agreement with what's been said however we have to
face
>> facts. We live in a visual world. When I tell people I'm a computer
>> programmer almost the first question I get asked is how can you see
> the
>> screen.
>> 
>> I also think the idea of an OS which doesn't have a GUI which would
>> avoid having to have a complex expensive screen reader on is a nice
> idea
>> in theory but there are a couple of points which would make it in
>> practical. This OS would typically be for the VI market, which means
> it
>> would be a specialist development. This means it would need to be
open
>> source or proprietary for an access tech company. If you think screen
>> readers are complex they are nothing to a full operating system. This
>> would indicate that the price would be hefty Or not commercially
>> supported in the instance of an Open source OS.
>> The other major limitation on a new OS would be support in an
> industrial
>> environment. For example the company I work for has a specific build
> of
>> windows XP aloud on the network, it won't let you have other builds
of
>> XP connected unless otherwise approved and just forget about non
> windows
>> based OS, not a chance, this is not that unusual in a work
> environment.
>> Also I would be afraid that it would button hole us and make it
harder
>> for one of us to get a job as a software engineer. If you tern up for
> a
>> job interview and you don't have any experience developing for the
>> platform your potential employer targets its another thing that marks
>> you down in comparison to anyone else going for the job.
>> 
>> The other worry is if a blind developer had no GUI development skills
> at
>> all. As has been said on this thread for a sighted person to put
>> together a gui its pretty quick so its a normal thing a sighted
>> developer can do.
>> I'd like to think that I'm someone who will give almost anything ago
> and
>> try not to let the fact I can't see a screen make a difference to the
>> work I do.
>> With this philosophy in mind there are 2 questions I was asked that a
>> normal developer wouldn't have been in the job interview which
> resulted
>> in me getting the job I've been doing for the last 5 and a half
years.
>> 1. How would you be able to use the graphical UML design tools and
> show
>> software design in a similar way to other developers?
>> 2. Can and how do you develop GUI's.
>> 
>> Write away there you can see the interviewer seeing problems that
need
>> to be answered to find out if I can do the job. I know some people
who
>> would have thought it improper to ask these questions but in my mind
> if
>> they hadn't been asked there would have still been a question mark
> next
>> to me when it came down to selecting the successful candidate.
>> 
>> I've been told since that it was the "I may not do it in the normal
> way
>> but it will get done" attitude of the answers that I gave which
swayed
>> the panel in my way as it showed my attitude to everything, not just
> my
>> blindness.
>> 
>> If my answers would have been
>> 1. I don't do graphical design. Its pointless, I do everything in a
> text
>> file.
>> 2. I don't do GUI's, other people are better at it than I am.
>> 
>> It shows a defeatist attitude, not something most employers are
> looking
>> for.
>> Yes, sighted people can be quicker at both these particular software
>> skills but other things I bring to the table I could be better at
than
>> others in the team, not because I'm blind but because I just am. A
> team
>> is made up of individuals with varying skills.
>> 
>> Lets not get away from the fact that the negative answers above do
> have
>> an element of truth. If I had my way my design wouldn't be done in
UML
>> and I wouldn't do GUI development but I don't work in a bubble.
> Sighted
>> people review, approve and use software and designs that I've
> generated
>> and as I said we live in a visual world.
>> 
>> Anyway, enough rambling from me.
>> Thanks
>> Nick.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
>> Roos
>> Sent: 13 October 2010 16:08
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
>> 
>> This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
>> accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again
> with
>> a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.
>> 
>> 
>> I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
>> to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that
>> can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that
>> the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very
>> simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a
massive
>> task in all fairness. 
>> 
>> I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
>> examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
>> ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
>> file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of
>> aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an
>> example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools
to
>> show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages.
>> Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors.
It's
> a
>> service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see
it's
>> worth. 
>> 
>> We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
>> rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
>> accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
>> field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet
there
>> is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
>> computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person
>> could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas
>> where having no or little sight might aid you! 
>> 
>> One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
>> springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing
> that
>> saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a
gracious
>> man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in
>> after we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we
>> really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download
it
>> from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our
project
>> was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics
>> the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and
> hours
>> on the little GUI side of the software. 
>> 
>> It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and
> make
>> appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles
> some
>> software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope
> with
>> the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus
on,,
>> areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact . 
>> 
>> It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What
> I'm
>> wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled
> people
>> are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should
>> commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or
> sighted
>> OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously
advanced
>> and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all. 
>> 
>> And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
>> development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an
> obsticle.
>> Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote
ourselves
>> and our value to a software development shop developing for the
> general
>> public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself
> for
>> one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years
> experience
>> as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced
> with
>> when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less
experience
>> than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in
less
>> time and with less effort. 
>> 
>> My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
>> programming and computer science where visually impaired people can
>> excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
>> increasingly important part. 
>> 
>> Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to
> start
>> and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then
>> sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind
programmer
>> (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with
>> confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a
>> company. 
>> 
>> Kerneels 
>> 
>> On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>>      I would advise spending time on web development with java on the
>> server side. Either that or headless java development such as web
>> services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very
> strong
>> java developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the
>> constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain
skills
>> in an API, swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large
>> traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech
> lead,
>> I can't push it into a project here because it is not an accepted
>> technology by our enterprise architects. 
>>      
>>      ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
>> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>  
>>      To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
>>      Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM 
>>      Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>> IMHO 
>>      
>>      
>>      Hi Jay, 
>>      Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on
>> Swing, SWT, or web? 
>>      
>>      Thanks. 
>>      
>>      Jim 
>>      
>>      Jim Homme, 
>>      Usability Services, 
>>      Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme 
>>      Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
>> accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and
> accessibility
>> advice 
>>      
>>      
>>      -----Original Message----- 
>>      From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay
> Macarty 
>>      Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM 
>>      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>>      Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>> IMHO 
>>      
>>      Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring
>> java 
>>      developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble
>> with is 
>>      finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there
>> are 
>>      certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a
>> lot of java 
>>      development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to
>> using web 
>>      based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining
>> interest in using 
>>      swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on
>> swing 
>>      accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of
>> us who 
>>      still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot. 
>>      
>>      
>>      ----- Original Message ----- 
>>      From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO"
>> <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>  
>>      To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
>>      Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM 
>>      Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>> IMHO 
>>      
>>      
>>      Hi Listers, 
>>      
>>      I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that
>> needing government 
>>      contracts in the United States would have some affect on all
>> this. I have 
>>      asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much
>> because there 
>>      is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java
>> programmer so 
>>      maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use
>> Struts at my 
>>      building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a
>> fool of myself, 
>>      it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin). 
>>      
>>      Susie Stanzel 
>>      
>>      -----Original Message----- 
>>      From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>>      [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The
>> Elf 
>>      Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM 
>>      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>>      Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>> IMHO 
>>      
>>      hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol 
>>      
>>      or hound,or pummel,  or... 
>>      
>>      elf 
>>      Moderator, Blind Access Help 
>>      Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises 
>>      Specialists in customized computers and peripherals 
>>      - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! 
>>      www.alacorncomputer.com 
>>      proprietor, The Grab Bag, 
>>      for blind computer users and programmers 
>>      http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com 
>>      
>>      ----- Original Message ----- 
>>      From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
>> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>  
>>      To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
>>      Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM 
>>      Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>> IMHO 
>>      
>>      
>>      
>> 
>>              Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but
>> finally the voice of 
>>              reason has made itself known. 
>>              
>>              Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure
>> them into actually 
>>              not abandoning it. 
>>              
>>              Take care, 
>>              Sina 
>>              
>>              ________________________________ 
>>              
>>              From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>>              [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
>> Of Ken Perry 
>>              Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM 
>>              To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>>              Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious
>> consideration, IMHO 
>>              
>>              
>>              
>>              If this is true then it's not time to tell people to
>> stay away.  It's time 
>>              to get people to get active and start emailing and 
>>              calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away
>> we lose what 
>>              accessibility was there. 
>>              
>>              
>>              
>>              Ken 
>>              
>>              
>>              
>>              
>>              
>>              From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>>              [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
>> Of Storm Dragon 
>>              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM 
>>              To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>>              Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious
>> consideration, IMHO 
>>              
>>              
>>              
>>              Hi, 
>>              I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the
>> ball on Linux 
>>              accessibility pretty much first thing when they took
>> over Sun. 
>>              It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over
>> software decisions, 
>>              to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far
>> 
>>              far away from Oracle and their software. I was even
>> going to get rid of 
>>              Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu
>> is a 
>>              fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they
>> somehow manage to win 
>>              their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows
>> who 
>>              they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and
>> maybe the open 
>>              source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is
>> still 
>>              alive and well after all. 
>>              Storm 
>>              
>>              -- 
>>              
>>              
>>              Registered Linux user number 508465: 
>>              http://counter.li.org/ 
>>              My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon: 
>>              http://www.stormdragon.us/ 
>>              Get yourself a Frostbox: 
>>              http://www.frostbitesystems.com/ 
>>              
>>              
>>              On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal
>> wrote: 
>>              
>>              
>>              oh know, 
>>              i wish its just a rumor. 
>>              if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said. 
>>              
>>              regards, 
>>              prateek agarwal. 
>>              
>>              
>>              
>>              On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
>> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote: 
>>              
>> 
>>                      I heard from a good source today that Oracle has
>> decided to discontinue 
>>                      support for the Java Access Bridge (and no
>> alternative is planned).  I 
>>                      would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If
>> anyone has information 
>>                      regarding this topic, please share. 
>>                      
>>                      Jamal 
>>                      
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>> 
>> -- 
>> Kerneels Roos 
>> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998 
>> Skype: cornelis.roos 
>> 
>> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" . 
>> 
>> "The Strawberry Jam Law: 
>> The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..." 
>>  -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting. 
>> 
>> 
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