Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:04:14 -0400

A friend of mine told me that Bose has openings for system and embedded 
hackers. I think SymAudio is looking for people too. As I'm not looking for a 
job, I am not up paying much attention to what companies may be looking for 
people but I'd suggest poking around web sites of consumer electronics 
companies and looking at their career opportunities pages.

Maybe searching one or more of the tech jobs web sites on "embedded" would turn 
up interesting leads.

cdh
On Oct 13, 2010, at 6:19 PM, qubit wrote:

> any names of companies offering such jobs?
> Someone on list might be interested.
> --le
>  
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chris Hofstader
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:02 AM
> Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> 
> I agree that Jamal's stuff goes a long way to making GUI programming for 
> hackers with vision impairment less onerous and I applaud his efforts. 
> 
> I do, however, agree that blind hackers will never be able to make a GUI as 
> visually appealing as our sighted colleagues. Surely, a relatively simple GUI 
> will probably not be too different from ones that our sighted colleagues can 
> make but the greater the complexity, the greater the difficulty for a blind 
> person to handle. 
> 
> For years, Glen Gordon (CTO at FS) had talked about making a programming 
> language for describing the elements of a GUI component (a dialogue for 
> instance) that, when compiled would make a VisualStudio form. He felt that 
> such a language could "compile" using a bunch of rules based heuristics to 
> determine where various controls and such should be located in the form. If 
> this is possible, it is conceivable that really good UI can result from a 
> purely text input method. As far as I know, no one has tried this approach 
> yet and it may be a really interesting research project for someone like Will 
> Pearson who really enjoys UI problems.
> 
> I still think embedded systems is the way to go as they are fun and the UI 
> may be something like a volume knob on the front of an amplifier which is the 
> same for all users. I listened to a friend's USB DAC from SymAudio a couple 
> of weeks ago and was blown away by the incredible audio from it. This little 
> box contains a ton of software and its "user interface" is a USB plug on one 
> end and a pair of RCA jacks on the other. Users can drive it from iTunes or 
> any number of other media player devices. As the device's "UI" is actually 
> just wires and some plugs, a blind person can write the code inside it 
> without any graphical elements even in the IDE.
> 
> Similar programs include everything from controlling fuel injectors on 
> automobiles to a Tassimo coffee maker. There are a lot of jobs in this space 
> and they are often very high paying positions.
> 
> cdh
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Hi Guys,
>> In all honesty, I feel that you have a fighting chance.
>> In the Windows, Microsoft world, there is Jamal's stuff. I don't know enough 
>> about how it all works to recommend the exact set up that might be best, but 
>>      I'm sure Jamal would chime in here. Look at the packages called lbc, 
>> IniForm, HomerJacs, and LBC.Net.
>> In the other stuff area, you have these. I would think that in the Java 
>> world, you would have Swing, with various kinds of layout mechanisms, and 
>> SWT, with all of its power. With languages like Python, C++, and Perl, you'd 
>> have the WX stuff at your disposal.
>> I say don't give up, and report back how you are doing so that we can help 
>> you through it. Don't worry, I'll be doing what I'm talking about before 
>> long.
>> Jim
>> Jim Homme,
>> Usability Services,
>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility 
>> here.Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels Roos
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:08 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
>> This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle 
>> accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again with a 
>> new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.
>> 
>> 
>>  I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want to 
>> create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that can't see 
>> properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that the FB examples 
>> are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very simple yet for a 
>> visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive task in all fairness. 
>> 
>> I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB 
>> examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would ridicule 
>> having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one file. (or any 
>> other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of aiding blind people) 
>> It's a poor design choice for anything but an example, but then, that's 
>> exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to show you simple GUI creation in 
>> various programming languages. Personally I think it's great and I commend 
>> all the contributors. It's a service to the community, but sighted people 
>> will struggle to see it's worth. 
>> 
>> We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is 
>> rediculously easy      and straight forward. No matter what kind of 
>> accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing field 
>> will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there is no 
>> reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in computer sciense 
>> and programming in particular where a blind person could compete well and 
>> I'm speculating that there might even be areas where having no or little 
>> sight might aid you! 
>> 
>> One particular small project I worked on while studying at university 
>> springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that 
>> saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious man, 
>> and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in after we did 
>> our presentation and basically told the  class that we really did spend much 
>> time on this and that we didn't just download it from the net or 
>> something... He did this, I think, because our project was fairly inferiour 
>> graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics the other student's 
>> projects sported even though I spent hours and hours on the little GUI side 
>> of the software. 
>> 
>> It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make 
>> appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some 
>> software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with the 
>> worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,, areas 
>> where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact . 
>> 
>> It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm 
>> wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people are 
>> trained up to believe that interaction with computers should commence in the 
>> generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted OS with all highly 
>> graphical applications with a rediculously advanced and complex and 
>> expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all. 
>> 
>> And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software development 
>> areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle. Also, how we 
>> can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves and our value to a 
>> software development shop developing for the general public or business 
>> where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for one have a little bit 
>> of a complex when think of all my years experience as a software developer 
>> and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with when having to develop a 
>> GUI, and how someone with far less experience than myself could code a GUI 
>> so much faster and better looking in less time and with less effort. 
>> 
>> My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in 
>> programming and computer science where visually impaired people can excell 
>> at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever increasingly 
>> important part. 
>> 
>> Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start and 
>> focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then sharing 
>> knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer (in the 
>> identified fields) could approach any development house with confidence of 
>> his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a company. 
>> 
>> Kerneels 
>> 
>> On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote: 
>> 
>> I would advise spending time on web development with java on the server 
>> side. Either that or headless java development such as web services. Both 
>> directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong java developer with 
>> very marketable skill sets without fighting the constant battle of either 
>> swing accessibility or trying to gain skills in an API, swt, which may have 
>> somewhat limited acceptence in a large traditional java shop. Personally, I 
>> love swt; however, as a tech lead, I can't push it into a project here 
>> because it is not an accepted technology by our enterprise architects. 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"<james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> 
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM 
>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Jay, 
>> Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on Swing, SWT, or 
>> web? 
>> 
>> Thanks. 
>> 
>> Jim 
>> 
>> Jim Homme, 
>> Usability Services, 
>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme 
>> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility 
>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty 
>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM 
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
>> 
>> Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring java 
>> developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble with is 
>> finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there are 
>> certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a lot of java 
>> development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to using web 
>> based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining interest in using 
>> swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on swing 
>> accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of us who 
>> still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot. 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO" <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> 
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM 
>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Listers, 
>> 
>> I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing government 
>> contracts in the United States would have some affect on all this. I have 
>> asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much because there 
>> is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java programmer so 
>> maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use Struts at my 
>> building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool of myself, 
>> it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin). 
>> 
>> Susie Stanzel 
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf 
>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM 
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
>> 
>> hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol 
>> 
>> or hound,or pummel,  or... 
>> 
>> elf 
>> Moderator, Blind Access Help 
>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises 
>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals 
>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! 
>> www.alacorncomputer.com 
>> proprietor, The Grab Bag, 
>> for blind computer users and programmers 
>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> 
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM 
>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the voice of 
>> reason has made itself known. 
>> 
>> Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into actually 
>> not abandoning it. 
>> 
>> Take care, 
>> Sina 
>> 
>> ________________________________ 
>> 
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry 
>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM 
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away.  It's time 
>> to get people to get active and start emailing and 
>> calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away we lose what 
>> accessibility was there. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Ken 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm Dragon 
>> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM 
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi, 
>> I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux 
>> accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun. 
>> It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software decisions, 
>> to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far 
>> far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get rid of 
>> Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a 
>> fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage to win 
>> their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who 
>> they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the open 
>> source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still 
>> alive and well after all. 
>> Storm 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> 
>> Registered Linux user number 508465: 
>> http://counter.li.org/ 
>> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon: 
>> http://www.stormdragon.us/ 
>> Get yourself a Frostbox: 
>> http://www.frostbitesystems.com/ 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> oh know, 
>> i wish its just a rumor. 
>> if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said. 
>> 
>> regards, 
>> prateek agarwal. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
>> 
>> I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to discontinue 
>> support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative is planned).  I 
>> would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If anyone has information 
>> regarding this topic, please share. 
>> 
>> Jamal 
>> 
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>> -- 
>> Kerneels Roos 
>> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998 
>> Skype: cornelis.roos 
>> 
>> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" . 
>> 
>> "The Strawberry Jam Law: 
>>   The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..." 
>>    -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.
>> 
> 
>

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